<gordonjcp>
bjorkintOsh: oh man Plan 9, I tried that years ago
<bjorkintosh>
it's still kicking.
<gordonjcp>
JesusGod-Pope666: OS worth mentioning that's Not Linux? Uhm, is NetBSD too mainstream?
<gordonjcp>
TempleOS, that's a good one
<gordonjcp>
genuinely a very beautiful thing
<gordonjcp>
Terry Davis was very ill but unquestionably a genius, and if he'd lived in a country with acceptable healthcare he'd still be alive
<gordonjcp>
</politics>
<bjorkintosh>
there are so many non-linux oses available.
<bjorkintosh>
I don't know where people find the time.
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<WoC>
it was <bjorkintOsh> WoC: was that not JesusGod-Pope666's question or am I hallucinating?
<bjorkintosh>
ah. he probably forgot then.
<WoC>
Also, someone made a multi-tasking version of DOS
<WoC>
can't recall the name, never tried it
<WoC>
DOS with DesqView i tried though, almost like multi-tasking
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<Skipp_OSX>
in the BeBook it says that Window::UpdateIfNeeded() is ignored if called from any thread but the window thread, and I've confirmed that this is the case in our BWindow class. So I assume that means calling this from the BPopUpMenu thread has no effect.
<Skipp_OSX>
Is there an alternative way to invalidate a window originating from a different thread?
<WoC>
funky things to do in DOS or CP/M; #1: echo hello > $CLOCK
<WoC>
may still work on modern PC's, just never tried it
<WoC>
kind of tricky to recover from on the original ibm pc
<gordonjcp>
WoC: in the early 2000s I used a kind of 32-bit DOS with loadable modules for things like network drivers, that was part of a thing called IBM 4694, that point-of-sale systems on
<Skipp_OSX>
DOS 4.0 is multi-tasking DOS
<Skipp_OSX>
Also the original IBM had no built in clock, that was an add-on. Anyway, this is off-topic.
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<WoC>
Only reason i mentioned it, it also wipes the cmos, at the time you needed a setup floppy to fix that, curious if it has any adverse effects on a modern pc
<Skipp_OSX>
unfortunately I can confirm this is indeed the case here: https://0x0.st/83rv.png
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<phschafft>
hm.
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<Skipp_OSX>
tried calling Flush() no good
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<Skipp_OSX>
I didn't really expect it to work. I would only work if there were pending drawing calls present and there doesn't appear to be any.
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<Skipp_OSX>
hey window, redraw for me would you please?
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<Begasus[m]>
closing down here
<Begasus[m]>
cu peeps!
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<JesusGod-Pope666>
bjorkintOsh: jup forgot, to many balls in the air.
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<waddlesplash>
fancy2209[m]: well, on nightly builds it's going to be a bit higher than release. There's more optimization work we can do here as well, but I don't know how much
<waddlesplash>
this is already lower than Linux would be? I think?
<fancy2209[m]>
with an UI? probably
<fancy2209[m]>
s/an/X/, s/UI/and a Window Manager/
<fancy2209[m]>
textinfo failed too bootstrap on Debian 12 too
<waddlesplash>
JesusGod-Pope666: 1. afaik, Terry was raised Catholic, but whatever he'd become after his atheist phase is pretty clearly not Catholicism, so your comments are factually wrong about him anyway. 2. For offtopic discussions please use #haiku-offtopic, but keep things respectful no matter what channel you are in.
<fancy2209[m]>
i also had other issues like less not having ppc on the architectures, less needing autopoint and pkg-config who don't come with the base haiku packages and aren't listed on the bootstrap docs, and flex not falling back to the working slackware mirror, forcing me to remove the dead sourceforge link manually
<JesusGod-Pope666>
Ahh well I did not go deeper, but he did talk about papist stuff in regards of what I saw of him.
<fancy2209[m]>
* i also had other issues like less not having ppc on the architectures list, make needing autopoint and pkg-config who don't come with the base haiku packages and aren't listed on the bootstrap docs, and flex not falling back to the working slackware mirror, forcing me to remove the dead sourceforge link manually
<JesusGod-Pope666>
/j haiku-offtopic
<fancy2209[m]>
* i also had other issues like less not having ppc on the architectures list,
<fancy2209[m]>
make needing autopoint and pkg-config who don't come with the base haiku packages and aren't listed on the bootstrap docs,
<fancy2209[m]>
and flex not falling back to the working slackware mirror for grabbing the sources (it failed to use that one too unless I removed the dead sourceforge link)
<waddlesplash>
fancy2209[m]: those look like ncurses symbols
<fancy2209[m]>
* i also had other issues like less not having ppc on the architectures list,
<fancy2209[m]>
make needing autopoint and pkg-config who don't come with the base haiku packages and aren't listed on the bootstrap docs,
<fancy2209[m]>
and flex not falling back to the working slackware mirror for grabbing the sources (it failed to use that unless I removed the dead sourceforge link)
<waddlesplash>
I have done a successful bootstrap build for x86 32-bit not long ago, I had to make some fixes for it though (and pushed all those)
<waddlesplash>
based on what I have seen from zeldakatze and yn0ga they have successfully bootstrapped the ppc port though I don't know if they needed to make more patches
<fancy2209[m]>
weird, ncurses6 built successfuly though
<JesusGod-Pope666>
waddlesplash, well he was clearly into God and stuff so he did clearly not sound like an atheist.
<waddlesplash>
JesusGod-Pope666: take it to #haiku-offtopic please.
<JesusGod-Pope666>
And talking about Roman catholicism kinda seems to connect the dots then.
<fancy2209[m]>
waddlesplash: weird, cause at least for flex I don't see why it would fail to fall back to the right SOURCE URI only on PowerPC
<waddlesplash>
I don't know either
<waddlesplash>
you are using the haikuports.cross repo yes?
<waddlesplash>
this line does not contain a -lncurses
<waddlesplash>
so, why doesn't it?
<waddlesplash>
that's where to start digging
<waddlesplash>
JesusGod-Pope666: random ruminations on the religion of people who worked in tech aren't really on-topic for technical discussions, though
<JesusGod-Pope666>
Well it was kinda part of his system.
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<fancy2209[m]>
<waddlesplash> "so, why doesn't it?" <- configure: WARNING: probably need a terminal library, one of: ncurses curses termlib termcap terminfo
<waddlesplash>
it should be using the dependent GCC
<waddlesplash>
er. the cross-tools GCC
<fancy2209[m]>
It seems to build host and cross
<waddlesplash>
oh, does it?
<waddlesplash>
weird, but ok
<fancy2209[m]>
It seemed to do so
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<fancy2209[m]>
Or maybe it's just wrong?
<fancy2209[m]>
But the x86 bootstrap would've failed if it was using the wrong target
<fancy2209[m]>
Okay yeah
<fancy2209[m]>
Installing ncurses-dev had it build
<fancy2209[m]>
And it seemed to use the right GCC
<fancy2209[m]>
No idea why
<fancy2209[m]>
Btw the first thing I was complained about was attr not being installed
<fancy2209[m]>
First thing configure said when I was building the toolchain
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<fancy2209[m]>
* the toolchain was fattr hadn't been found
<fancy2209[m]>
So I installed attr and restarted
<fancy2209[m]>
* and restarted build
<janking>
hello
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<fancy2209[m]>
Hello
<fancy2209[m]>
* So I installed attr since that's where that's from and restarted buid, it's not an error but I assume if it's expected it's meant to be installed?
<waddlesplash>
that one is a Haiku build dependency
<waddlesplash>
I guess flex in particular would need versions both for host and guest
<waddlesplash>
So the use of both compilers makes sense then
<Habbie>
if i ignore just a few words, this conversation might as well be in #openwrt-devel (which is one window over for me) :D
<Habbie>
(the openwrt build involves two gcc compiles, and a host + target compile for several tools)
<fancy2209[m]>
waddlesplash: not on the docs
<fancy2209[m]>
* the docs for apt for some reason
<waddlesplash>
well, because the docs aren't about bootstrapping
<waddlesplash>
there are other docs for that
<waddlesplash>
PulkoMandy wrote some relatively recently, they may not be complete, we should add to them
<fancy2209[m]>
bootstrap only mentions autotools, automake and cmake
<fancy2209[m]>
unless I didn't see it
<waddlesplash>
clearly we need to add more then!
<waddlesplash>
bootstrapping really needs more work
<fancy2209[m]>
yep!
<waddlesplash>
we don't have any automation past stage 1
<fancy2209[m]>
oh looks like I also missed a package (or this was added while I was working)
<waddlesplash>
ideally we would have full automation so that after the stage 1 bootstrap is complete, a Haiku VM would be booted from the newly built image and the stage 2 bootstrap be done automated
<fancy2209[m]>
ncurses_development is now mentioned on the docs
<fancy2209[m]>
* ncurses_development is now mentioned on the docs for bootstrapping
<fancy2209[m]>
waddlesplash: I mean it's no big deal if it doesn't
<fancy2209[m]>
To automate stage2 you'd have to assume userland is fully working
<waddlesplash>
well, yes. but it is on x86
<fancy2209[m]>
* ncurses\_development is now mentioned on the docs for bootstrapping, not sure if it was added after I started or I can't read
<waddlesplash>
ideally we would run one command and come back however long later to a fully bootstrapped image on targets where we can boot to desktop
<fancy2209[m]>
yeah that I agree
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<fancy2209[m]>
<waddlesplash> "well, because the docs aren't..." <- iirc attr is for building the cross toolchain though?
<waddlesplash>
ah, that's for Haiku builds in general
<waddlesplash>
that should be mentioned in the main docs if it's not
<waddlesplash>
but we really need to overhaul the build docs. I have been meaning to rewrite ReadMe.Compiling and consolidate more into that
<Hanicef[m]>
currently building latest revision, and i'm getting a worrying amount of warnings, is this known or is my setup broken?
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<Hanicef[m]>
actually, i just noticed that i get warning: Invalid jamfile cache: Failed to read file info. when i first start the build, so most likely broken setup
<waddlesplash>
that just means jamfiles changed since you last rebuilt
<waddlesplash>
there are some files that do generate tons of warnings, and they were changed yesterday
<waddlesplash>
so all may be just as expected
<Hanicef[m]>
alright, thanks for the info
<Habbie>
i get that jamfile warning all the time, indeed
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<Hanicef[m]>
i mean, i ended up purging my install before waddlesplash managed to answer, so i'm currently in the process of rebuilding the entire toolchain anyway
<Hanicef[m]>
(which is 100% on me, btw)
<Habbie>
waddlesplash, re earlier conversation about 'haiku on ppc' and 'ppc devices with 64MB of RAM', i think it was fancy2209[m] who said "well, we might just end up swapping a lot"
<Habbie>
waddlesplash, would that work? or is there some lower RAM bound below which swapping cannot save us?
<Habbie>
(it was fancy2209[m])
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<waddlesplash>
there is a lower bound yes
<waddlesplash>
in large part because kernel memory mostly is unswappable
<Habbie>
yeah i was thinking of exactly that for starters
<waddlesplash>
I don't know what the lower bound is at this point. It's definitely gone down since beta5
<Habbie>
oh that's something :)
<Habbie>
and i guess this is a number somebody could discover with a VM on x86
<Habbie>
and then presumably that number would be close for ppc
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<fancy2209[m]>
Also the WIi actually has a little bit over 64
<fancy2209[m]>
NetBSD can use 77MB
<fancy2209[m]>
Linux 72MB
<fancy2209[m]>
* NetBSD and NT4 can use
<fancy2209[m]>
* Linux 72MB for some reason
<Habbie>
right, i saw the SRAM
<Habbie>
i feel that '64 versus 77' will likely be solvable if it comes to that
<Habbie>
sorry what, people put NT4 on it?
<Habbie>
ok yes they did
<Hanicef[m]>
imma be honest, when you folks were talking about ppc, i was expecting old macbooks or talos motherboards, not a wii :P
<Habbie>
Hanicef[m], i went through the same series of emotions a few days ago ;)
<Hanicef[m]>
i mean, mad respect if you can get it working on a wii
<Habbie>
i also may or may not have promised myself to port to the original xbox if fancy2209[m] gets away with this ;)
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<Halian_>
o/
<waddlesplash>
IIRC before package management Haiku could boot to desktop with 93MB
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<Habbie>
waddlesplash, that's without swap?
<waddlesplash>
I don't remember
<Habbie>
alright
<waddlesplash>
at any rate there's a bunch of stuff you could trim off to cut that number down
<Habbie>
and yes, i see how packagefs has a cost
<waddlesplash>
and there's other optimizations. I have a bugfix I need to do which is going to reduce kernel memory usage by a few hundred KB on most systems
<waddlesplash>
not a lot but these things add up fast
<fancy2209[m]>
<Hanicef[m]> "imma be honest, when you folks..." <- It's the hardware I have
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<fancy2209[m]>
Also gonna work on new world powermacs since that's what qemu supports
<waddlesplash>
I think zeldakatze and yn0ga are working on Mac hardware
<fancy2209[m]>
Is there a way to increase the HaikuPorter wget timeout?
<fancy2209[m]>
ftp.gnu.org takes a bit sometimes
<fancy2209[m]>
waddlesplash: Are they still working on it?
<waddlesplash>
that's the forum thread I linked you to
<waddlesplash>
intermittently it seems
<fancy2209[m]>
I checked the GitHub and it was last update October 2024 iirc
<fancy2209[m]>
I applied the changes on top of the at the time latest haiku commit
<fancy2209[m]>
* I checked the GitHub and the three was last updated October 2024 ftom what inremebe
<fancy2209[m]>
<fancy2209[m]> "I applied the changes on top..." <- It applied almost cleanly
<fancy2209[m]>
One function had been removed a d another bad the signature changed but was easy to fiix that
<phschafft>
2KB! ;)
<Habbie>
i recently did some 1KB work for haiku ;) but it quickly grew to 3KB
<Habbie>
but, i cheated, it was only stage1
<phschafft>
still fun I hope?
<phschafft>
Ha! It works! *offers everyone a cookie*
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<fancy2209[m]>
Welp won't be able to check if bootstrapping works today
<fancy2209[m]>
Let's hope day 3 I can finally start working on haiku and not in bootstrapping haiku without restarting due to a missing dep or gnu's ftp timing out