<Donut_Kop>
I have a technical question about haiku, specically about the bootloader. Is this the right place to ask?
<Donut_Kop>
I want to set the default boot volume. At present, the bootloader has no default volume to use, so I have to manually select it from the boot menu everytime the OS boots
<phschafft>
I'm not fully sure, but I think I maybe had the same question as you. so interested in what answer you get :)
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<Donut_Kop>
okay so a bit of an update: the OS can't find a boot volume when the ISO usb is removed
<Donut_Kop>
I'm not sure this is the intended behaviour X_X
<Donut_Kop>
I think for good measure I'll read through the help documentation for installation
<bjorkintosh>
Donut_Kop: is this installed on bare metal?
<bjorkintosh>
as the only OS?
<Donut_Kop>
yes, at least it should be. There aren't any other valid boot entries in the U
<Donut_Kop>
typo
<Donut_Kop>
yes, there are no other valid boot entries on the hard disk, and booting into the hard disk from UEFI brings me to the Haiku Boot Loader
<Donut_Kop>
of course, it somehow doesn't find a valid boot volume when I'm in the bootloader
<bjorkintosh>
is it marked as bootable?
<Donut_Kop>
Good question. How would I go about checking this? I'm currently in a live haiku session on the target machine
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<Donut_Kop>
ah figured out how to: by using haiku's "DriveSetup" utility
<Donut_Kop>
no, the volume is not marked as bootable
<Donut_Kop>
more specifically: there is no boot partition on the disk
<bjorkintosh>
ah. would you lose any data if you were to start over? it's a pretty speedy process.
<bjorkintosh>
not that you need to.
<Donut_Kop>
nah I'm not married to any data on there thankfully
<Donut_Kop>
I know in GNU/Linux operating systems, manually setting up the boot partition is needed. If the install media didn't set up a boot partition it might be necessary to manually partition the disk
<bjorkintosh>
you shouldn't have to. I think you can just edit it.
<bjorkintosh>
then again, I've never had to fiddle with that bit.
<OscarL>
for UEFI don't one always need an EFI/ESP partition (FAT formatted) in any case?
<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] b6f74b490564 - app_server: do not pass BAffineTransform as-is over server link
<OscarL>
I'm trying to update setuptools, seems to work, but complains about impending doom if I keep using the deprecated method for building it...
<OscarL>
thus I try the modern way... fall into bootstrapping issues. Then I try the RTFM method. works, but still complains, now with harsher words :-D
<OscarL>
(mmm, might have been the exact same message, and I'm now just a bit more sensitive to it :-P)
<Donut_Kop>
Quick question: How does Haiku handle virtual memory? Do they have a page file, a swap partition?
<Donut_Kop>
does it have*
<Donut_Kop>
I'm creating the partitions for my new Haiku system and it doesn't mention anything about a swap partition being required
<Donut_Kop>
the guide doesn't mention*
<Donut_Kop>
ah well convieniently there is a VirtualMemory option in the preferences menu: it looks like the haiku partition automatically sets one up for you. Neat!
<OscarL>
There's a swap file default (no separate partition for it)
<OscarL>
I never user swapfile while running Haiku :-D
<OscarL>
I rather have apps die if they run out of memory (have had *terrible* experiences in the past, on other OSes, with HDD trashing due to swap).
<OscarL>
At least for my use cases... 1 or 2 GB is more than enough for slow machines where I won't be running really heavy apps... and for machines with 4GB and up... no real need for swap for the tihngs I run.
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<Donut_Kop>
Unfortunately after following the EFI guide, the result yielded a system which cannot be booted.
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<Donut_Kop>
I'll try running
<Donut_Kop>
I'll try running through the guide again
<OscarL>
does Haiku boot loader starts to boot and then fails, or you don't even get to see any icons?
<Donut_Kop>
no, the UEFI can't find a bootable device. The bootloader doesn't show up. Having a look at the disk, it seems that after running the installer as stated in the guide it completely erased the formatted partitions
<Donut_Kop>
very strange
<Donut_Kop>
like I said I'll try triple-checking the steps, just in case it was user-error
<OscarL>
Never seen installer nuke partitions. Partitions might be there but the UEFI can be picky and need some manual setup...
<OscarL>
of fiddling with efivars (I had to do that on this machine, via a separate linux install)
<Donut_Kop>
Okay this is really strange: Having a look at the partitions on the disk, one partition scheme is all out-of-whack
<Donut_Kop>
the two partitions, the ESP and the main haiku partition, have been replaced with 1) an unformatted partition of ~232 GB, and the rest of the disk just being empty space.
<OscarL>
If you used DriveSetup to initialize the disk and create the partitions, and it ended up in that... I'd say that merits opening a bug report over https://dev.haiku-os.org
<Donut_Kop>
yeah I was just about to ask where the source code might be
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<Begasus[m]>
g'morning peeps
<glassnerves>
mornign
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<Begasus[m]>
afk
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<OscarL>
Morning Begasus[m]!
<OscarL>
trying to figure out how to boostrap setuptools once they remove the setup.py method the next month... left my head spinning (we're good up to 80.9.0 at least). Off to bed.
<OscarL>
Night Begasus[m]! :-P
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<phschafft>
good morning.
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<erysdren>
good morning all
<phschafft>
mau
<phschafft>
I feel like I wrote the most inefficient code to draw a line.
<erysdren>
most artists and creatives tend to outdo themselves given enough time. so yes, i expect evne more inefficient line drawing code this time next year!
unimatrix is now known as yeti
<phschafft>
haha.
<phschafft>
I think one of the main questions is if the compiler will cache the result for the differences.
<erysdren>
have you looked at Bresenham's line drawing algorithm?
<Habbie>
gcc.godbolt.org can tell you these things
<phschafft>
specifically as they are already used outside the loop it might do the calculations for them outside the loop.
<phschafft>
erysdren: weeks ago, and I made a comment in the code to check that again.
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, it's a pretty default one, don't know why/how it searches for "arch/1/limits.h" though?
<TurBoss>
no idea
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<Begasus[m]>
from that header that's called: #define __HAIKU_ARCH_HEADER(header)<arch/__HAIKU_ARCH/header>
<Habbie>
i bet that '1' wanted to be something else?
<phschafft>
maybe you are on a one bit computer ;)
<Begasus[m]>
lol
* phschafft
actually wanted to buy one recently. but after he looked them up they were out of stock. maybe next time. still strange that something that exotic randomly goes out of stock.
<TurBoss>
mine is a virtual machine
<Begasus[m]>
that one other beat you to it :P
<Begasus[m]>
bare metal ryzen7 here :)
<TurBoss>
😲 nice!
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<nekobot>
• korli (822feb6c): pyqt_builder: bump version
<nagerst>
Qemu is impressive, compiling it right now. The ammount of code must be immense.
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<Habbie>
compiling? you can pkgman install it
<erysdren>
yeah its on haiku's repo
<gordonjcp>
nagerst: are you old enough to remember freshmeat.net?
<nagerst>
haha
<gordonjcp>
nagerst: massive open-source software site, kind of like a cross between social media and github
<nagerst>
I am old enough the remember the nuclear deterrent from Leonid Breznev.
<nagerst>
but yes i am old =(
<gordonjcp>
I'm old enough to remember being allowed to stay up late to watch the video for Two Tribes being played on The Tube, with the guys with big Reagan and Brezhnev rubber heads duking it out in a prizefighting ring
<gordonjcp>
actually, maybe it wasn't Brezhnev, maybe it was Chernenko
<HaikuUser>
mornin
<erysdren>
good morning
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<nagerst>
Good myrning my friend
<gordonjcp>
christech: 'lo
<gordonjcp>
erysdren: evening
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<nagerst>
godron if you had a proper TV with colour you was punished for smuggling under brazhnev.
<scantysnax>
hello all. good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night :)
<phschafft>
morning.
<nagerst>
hehe
<nagerst>
scantysnax: Wow covering all bases. i like it.
<Habbie>
only the good bases
<nagerst>
Habbie: yea noone recognize the evil penguin developers that sits on the south pole.
<gordonjcp>
servus
<gordonjcp>
(time-independent)
<nagerst>
gordonjcp: i tried and failed to be funny, as antarctically officially has no timezones.
<nagerst>
most use the science mission contat time.
<christech>
its just either light or dark?
<christech>
sun, no sun
<nagerst>
south pole is like the north pole, but colder as it has a landmass underneath. Yeah the arctic and atarctic circles worsk almost the same, but the tilt of the earth is slightly unialigned
<nagerst>
so it is almost always coldest o the south pole.
<nagerst>
The coldest ever recorded of 73- C 163,4 Farebheit was indeed recorded in the north, whilst that sougld not be possible.
<bjorkintosh>
it happened one dark and stormy night, didn't it nagerst?
<nagerst>
Siberian russia is an anomaly, where only pain and pleasure happens. Never go there.
<nagerst>
This has nothing to do with haiku,
<bjorkintosh>
Pain and Pleasure. sounds like masochists live there.
<erysdren>
there are masochists everywhere
<phschafft>
could someone please call service? nagerst has crashed again.
<nagerst>
all haiku users are masochists, waiting for the next upgrade and trying to make programs work for a minority plattform
<nagerst>
=)
<erysdren>
yeah i was gonna say lol
<erysdren>
just by being in this channel you're a masochist of some stripe
<bjorkintosh>
I resemble that statement, erysdren
<nagerst>
hahaha erysdren agree
<bjorkintosh>
then again, No Pain, no gain. might as well enjoy it huh?
<nagerst>
Life is good in general with haiku... i still have to bood my laptop to do identification stuff. Sweden is a very fascistic state. I have to have a program on my computer or phone that has access to EVERYTHING. Kinda annoying
<bjorkintosh>
which program, nagerst?
<nagerst>
bankid, otherwise i can not book a camping place, book a dental appointment or even a freaking golf court
<nagerst>
i wish there was a open source version
<bjorkintosh>
nagerst: luckily ... you know what open source is and you're a masochist.
<bjorkintosh>
no pain no gain ;-)
<nagerst>
true
<nagerst>
of cours i am
<nagerst>
but i didnt start as a opensource person, i ran the texas99 and the c64 for so many years.
<bjorkintosh>
and which programming languages do you use?
<nagerst>
I do not code any more as i failed with a certain driver. Radio Automation was mostly C.
<erysdren>
C is best
<bjorkintosh>
nagerst: how long ago was this?
<phschafft>
HolyC!
<erysdren>
no, not HolyC :P
<bjorkintosh>
I hope not.
<nagerst>
erysdren: Fastest of the current, systems, but i dont think rust can help and it is a waste of time
<bjorkintosh>
HolyC and TempleOS are troll systems.
<nagerst>
I actually tried holy C after watching ALL taurettical videos and often saw hime live online, not in person. God damn genious
<nagerst>
Terry Davis
<nagerst>
depends on what you want to do
<phschafft>
bjorkintosh: so they would fit some of the /people/ in this channel.
<nagerst>
it did exactly what his god wanted him to do, i respect the man and he was a genious of a strange kind.
<bjorkintosh>
phschafft: it's a holy system for the holy. I'm not holy.
<nagerst>
Code compile at the speed or binay would be cool for small programs.
<nagerst>
=D
<erysdren>
i do write my code with a god in mind but not any of those ones
<nagerst>
bjorkintosh: I man not religious in any way
<erysdren>
:P
<bjorkintosh>
nagerst: Go is pretty fast at compiles.
<nagerst>
indeed
<nagerst>
but go has the problem with the compiler
<bjorkintosh>
does it?
<bjorkintosh>
it likes its compiler.
<nagerst>
what memory tests can it survive
<erysdren>
shrug
* phschafft
considers that the radio is currently playing an inter-religion song...
<nagerst>
lots of bound locks
<phschafft>
what I wonder is the boundary of compile time + run time for a given problem.
<nagerst>
phschafft: Oooh granted, that is an argument i have not personall seen
<scantysnax>
brb
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<phschafft>
:)
<nagerst>
But i havent understand the reason i should code in go
<phschafft>
I think people in here will attest that I'm a source of things not yet seen ;)
<nagerst>
And go is fine, but i dont want haiku infected with electron garbage.
<nagerst>
phschafft: i have to ask what is a "interreligion song"
<phschafft>
one that chants to more than one religion's holy texts?
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* phschafft
wonders what to implement next.
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<phschafft>
ah, I wanted to look at the DOM API.
<scantysnax>
thank goodness for concurrent compiles in gcc, otherwise this would take hours. if i build my pr
<scantysnax>
if i build my project without, it takes almost 5 minutes
<scantysnax>
and about 1:40 for -j 6
<phschafft>
when I was young $30km_nude_to_school_in_snowstorm_story $random_anecdote_about_gcc
<erysdren>
lol
<scantysnax>
are there any devs here? i feel like i may have found a bug in BAlert()
<phschafft>
what kind of bug?
<swiftbanana[m]>
A cricket
<swiftbanana[m]>
Makes a lot of noise
<scantysnax>
well, since BAlert inherits from BWindow, it is posible to do BAlert->Show(), but it needs to be BAlert->Go()
<phschafft>
swiftbanana[m]++
<scantysnax>
(new BAlert(0, "scanty", "snax"))->Go();// good
<scantysnax>
(new BAlert(0, "scanty", "snax"))->Show(); // bad
<swiftbanana[m]>
Hello phschafft!
<scantysnax>
any takers?
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<phschafft>
scantysnax: have you asked about that recently?
<phschafft>
I feel like I remember someone saying that.
* phschafft
nods to swiftbanana[m].
<scantysnax>
phschafft: i have asked recently in this channel
<scantysnax>
for a few days
<scantysnax>
nobody seems to pay attention.
<phschafft>
ah.
<phschafft>
I mean, I seem to do.
<phschafft>
but sadly noone who could help.
<scantysnax>
i mean, i suppose i can create a ticket, but it's such a small thing.
<scantysnax>
then there is this issue with the bootloader, i don't remember where it is, but they did a cmp reg, 0 instead of or reg, reg
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<scantysnax>
suppose i can periodically ask, and maybe i will get an answer.
<scantysnax>
haven't seen many commits lately from the usual suspects.
<Habbie>
filing a ticket might be a better use of your time than asking periodically
<scantysnax>
gotcha. i'll have to look into it later since i don't have the time right now... have to leave work sooon.
<scantysnax>
ok, i'm out of here, see you guys later.
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<Anarchos>
hello
<Anarchos>
shame on ubuntu, my BeFS partitions are mounted read only...
* phschafft
nods.
<Anarchos>
so i use my VM to transfer files from physical HDD to another !
<erysdren>
:P
<erysdren>
yeah the linux BeFS driver has never had write support
<erysdren>
for whatever reason
<Anarchos>
erysdren i guess it is due to journaling/attributes ?
<erysdren>
perhaps yeah
<erysdren>
i wouldn't know
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* Anarchos
is transferring 2 931 137 files at an astonishing rate of 200Ko/s ....
<Anarchos>
49.5Go to be copied by 26Sept....
<Anarchos>
two modern sata disks :(
<phschafft>
I thought it was basically because of little interest by the community.
<Habbie>
"this is hard" and "little interest" multiply eachother
<phschafft>
also BeFS helper tools are... not that widely available.
* phschafft
nods to Habbie.
<Anarchos>
if linux source code was not such a mess of spaghetti, i would never had bought BeOS...
<erysdren>
well, linux now and linux in 1997 are very different beasts for sure
<phschafft>
pasta code!
<erysdren>
but yes, still spaghetti
<phschafft>
you don't know how bad I was feeling when I implemented a jump opcode in my VM...
<Anarchos>
linus must be following the FSM cult !
<erysdren>
FSM?
<Anarchos>
erysdren flying spaghetti monster (yes, it is a real cult)
<erysdren>
oh yeah i've heard of that, just never abbreviated
<gordonjcp>
everything runs on goto
<erysdren>
truth
<Anarchos>
and macros everywhere. Impossible to track which code is executed
<erysdren>
goto is a fun time bomb
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<phschafft>
but let's be fair: in my years as a software developer I have hardly seen any project with quality code.
<erysdren>
if it works, its quality enough
<erysdren>
:P
<phschafft>
that is what most people think.
<erysdren>
cant waste time thinking too much about it in most cases.
<phschafft>
what I also very much enjoy is when people get some software for free from 'the internet'. and then talk about how 'they' 'are required to have tested that' when they find some minor bug.
<phschafft>
as long as people think that software cannot cost money, and as long as people think computer 'must just work' quality will not be a relevant topic.
<erysdren>
indeed
<Habbie>
it's well known that all open source developers sleep under bridges and sustain themselves by eating cockroaches
<phschafft>
I mean I'm not even talking about free software here.
<Habbie>
oh you're including "pirated"?
<phschafft>
Habbie: I include hard business.
<phschafft>
but it should be very much noted that most of the big players basically run 90% code people did on thier own time and maybe 10% actual own work.
<Habbie>
can you explain what 'for free' means in the context of 'hard business'?
<phschafft>
Habbie: there is a lot of colours in that. like 'for free' as in 'for a penny' or 'get the base software free, pay for support', ...
<Habbie>
yes, agreed
<phschafft>
speaking very generally here. :)
<Habbie>
uhuh
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<Anarchos>
just a question, is vscode available for Haiku (just asking, please don't start a war)
<Habbie>
iirc we don't have electron
<Habbie>
i think somebody mentioned an alternative runtime that might be easier to port
<Anarchos>
ah electron is 'js on server side' , right ?
<Habbie>
electron is "the app is actually Chrome and a bunch of included html and js and other things"
<Habbie>
so client side
<Habbie>
an electron app could theoretically be entirely client side
<Habbie>
just written in web technologies
<Anarchos>
Habbie ah yes, my bad. Web app as native app. What a silly concept, when you can just build a native app...
<Habbie>
'just' is a bad word
<Habbie>
it almost always hides an attempt to ignore reality :)
<phschafft>
the reality is that building anything web is nowadays so much easer than any native code. and basically same performance for most tasks.
<Habbie>
oh no. not same performance
<phschafft>
also given that most apps just do boring stuff to begin with.
<phschafft>
you are right, sometimes it is faster.
<phschafft>
never had any 'native' picture viewer that rendered JPEGs as fast as firefox.
<phschafft>
don't know how firefox does that. maybe they render them already before the user even knows he wants to look at them? ;)
<bjorkintosh>
phschafft: firefox is actively being worked on, whereas most picture viewers aren't that actively worked on.
<Habbie>
web browsers do sometimes do things ahead of you :)
<phschafft>
bjorkintosh: and exactly that is my point. the web has such a focus, and it is bad in so many ways that browsers are within the most highly optimised software we have. so they often outperform random projects from that one guy somewhere in sweden.
<phschafft>
that is specifically true if what you do with them is actually doing it right and not giving them a bad time.
<Anarchos>
i was so astonished to see that metamath is compiled with gcc, with optimizations guided by profiling ! I never thought such things could exist
<phschafft>
hm?
<Anarchos>
phschafft i am looking for this option , wwait a minute
<phschafft>
OscarL: I said to erysdren earlier how we would have liked that in the 90s. how we would all stare at it to figure out how someone made it. ;)
<OscarL>
(saved as "erysdren's at their calmest.gif")
<erysdren>
hahaha
<phschafft>
I was actually very confused a little while ago when I noticed that modern screen settings don't have a way to select the colour mode.
<erysdren>
funny, it totally could have been made in the 90s. the Plush library here is almost unedited from the last 1997 release.
<erysdren>
though 1.5mb for a gif would have been super unreasonable
<phschafft>
;)
<phschafft>
my first internet line was a 30 MBit/s ISDN link. used to download 50MP PNGs from telescopes.
<phschafft>
the next one was a 64kbit/s single channel ISDN.
<OscarL>
erysdren: an .exe file packed with UPX would have been what? 50 KiB? :-)
<erysdren>
oh yes, indeed. just need a 640x480x8 VESA mode and you'd be set
<phschafft>
but storage was small. I had so many floppies.
<erysdren>
and enough system memory to store a 640x480 offscreen buffer
* phschafft
offers some EDO RAM.
<erysdren>
anyway glad you liked it OscarL! i'm planning on making a non-looped YouTube version with stupid sound effects.
<OscarL>
hehe, if you make it "react" to the music's beats... you'll be officially part of the demo scene, where all the kool dudes are, or so I'm told.
<erysdren>
indeed
<erysdren>
my dumb ode demoscene and skeleton memes.
<erysdren>
i wanna make more fun scene renders, gifs and videos with Plush
<erysdren>
i love the way it looks
<phschafft>
:)
<OscarL>
(BPM detection algos shouldn't be too hard, or just cheat, and use a music file with a regular beat patttern, and set animation to that cadence)
<erysdren>
yeah i was looking into how to make a music visualizer in code
<erysdren>
apparently the main thing is Fast Fourier Transforms to break the music into useful streams of data for visualization
<erysdren>
doesnt surprise me. FFT seems to be useful for anything.
<OscarL>
it is.
<gordonjcp>
phschafft: you'd be amazed how many ISDN BRIs I still have in use
<phschafft>
hm.
<gordonjcp>
so many Cisco 2900s with PVDMs and BRIs
<gordonjcp>
all going in the skip soon
<phschafft>
I considered it for a few things. but chips no longer available so for me it was time to move on.
<gordonjcp>
all going over to SIP
<bjorkintosh>
the 'S' is a menace.
<bjorkintosh>
too much software!
<gordonjcp>
and here I am creating more
<OscarL>
erysdren: there are less computational intensive methods, depending on what the goal. for beat per minute detection, some basic IIR/FIR filters (as low pass band), and some counters could be enough.
<erysdren>
true indeed
<erysdren>
i was wondering if there was a library to smooth over getting this data from some audio data, but i couldn't find anything
<erysdren>
there are audio visualization libraries yet, but they draw it themselves
<erysdren>
usually
<erysdren>
*yes
<phschafft>
erysdren: if you find something nice please share.
<phschafft>
my flatmate wants a large scale display with beat display for our place.
<phschafft>
(~3000px x 1px)
<erysdren>
mmm
<erysdren>
that sounds fun
<phschafft>
baically he wants that with every beat a 'dot' is emitted and then 'flowing' to the end.
<phschafft>
the thing would be around 10m long
<OscarL>
erysdren: I haven't looked into the source ode, but was't winamp's AVS opensourced looog ago (that should have plenty of sound processing/analisys code geared to music visualization).
<erysdren>
i dunno, but i have the leaked winamp source code anyway :P
<OscarL>
there's also a couple of "AVS clones" in FOSS land too.
<OscarL>
and there's another one that now escapes me, that I used not long ago... will let you know when I find it :-)
<erysdren>
the issue for me is just finding a library that *only* gets me the appropriate data through FFT or whatever. not drawing the data itself, that's what i want Plush for
<OscarL>
erysdren: that "musicvisualizer" looks simple and interesting! not a fan of fftw3 for small projects myself, but there are smaller fft libs out there, as https://github.com/mborgerding/kissfft
<erysdren>
ahh
<erysdren>
tyty
<erysdren>
yeah i don't know what's good and what's not for this
Anarchos has quit [Quit: Vision[]: i've been blurred!]
<OscarL>
lol at the changelog for KissFFT: (from 2004): "Add kfc.[ch]: the KISS FFT Cache. It takes care of allocs for you ( suggested by Oscar Lesta )."
<erysdren>
:D
<phschafft>
KISS and Plush...
<erysdren>
:3
<OscarL>
gotta love 'em
<phschafft>
;)
<OscarL>
I think I got "involved" in KissFFT after hitting a speed wall with my own DFT code, and looking for something faster, but not overly complex.
<erysdren>
aye
<phschafft>
when I used to DJ at some events I always used a special type of beat detection to sync things: we hand this one dancer who was perfectly in sync all the time. so I was watching him. when he landed with his feet on the floor that was the exaxct moment of the beat.
<erysdren>
good method
<phschafft>
and yes, one time I accidentally stopped the music and he kept hovering in the air until I continued.
<erysdren>
lmao
<phschafft>
(I did in fact not fully stop it, but managed to set the playback speed to 20%. and he magically synced to that new speed within a split second)
<erysdren>
the human brain is cool
<phschafft>
he very well compensated for my complete lack of sense of rhythm. (no fun when you're the DJ)
<phschafft>
using one little known feature a lot today:
<phschafft>
if you have two structs you can assign them, no need for memcpy() or similar.
<phschafft>
naturally you should keep in mind that this is a direct shallow copy. so if it is useful depends a bit on your structure.
<erysdren>
yeah that's a fun on
<erysdren>
one*
<OscarL>
in pythonland, assignment doesn't copy, thus the need for copy.copy() and copy.deepcopy().
<erysdren>
what is a deep copy anyway
<OscarL>
if you have an struct/object that holds references to other structs/objects...
<OscarL>
deep copy will ensure you have proper data for those "all the way down", and not just a copy of the reference/name
<erysdren>
ahh nice
<phschafft>
OscarL: discussed a lot of copy vs. reference in #perl recently. and also the more I learn about python it is basically Perl ideas and features with a strange (to me) syntax.
<OscarL>
:-)
<phschafft>
the interesting part is when you get to the question if referencing actually saves you memory.
<OscarL>
(familiarity is king in what we consider strange or intuitive, I have found)
<phschafft>
(hence I added 'to me')
<OscarL>
sure.
<phschafft>
(I just find it funny that python is so much suggested as a 'beginner language' and perl as 'write only' by the angry mob, but python seems to be just a reimplementation in the end... hinting to that many things are just taste and religios wars ;)
<OscarL>
was also including me on my remark, as I can't see perl as other than an alien language... but just because I started on the other side of the language map.
<phschafft>
but back to my point: a lot of my recent work has a problem with stuff as big as sizeof(void*).
<phschafft>
so for example with small numbers a copy might be more efficient than a reference.
<OscarL>
that makes sense. when thinking about full copies vs refereces, I tend to have ojbect creation times in mind... depending on objects... can either be trivial, or just tank your performance.