<Molnija>
i'm wondering if i should blow away this USB stick I have and install haiku on one of my tablets.
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<OscarL>
Molnija: only one way to find out if Haiku supports it enough to booth... some users have reported even touchscreen working on some odd devices. Let us know if you got lucky :-)
<OscarL>
glassnerves: my main suggestion would be... use it, find something that bothers you enough to try to fix it, do your best attempt, or... search for tasks/bugs marked as "easy" over https:/dev.haiku-os.org, and give some of them a go.
<OscarL>
glassnerves: do not get discouraged by Haiku using mostly C++, I don't really speak either, and have landed some patches and even some odd drivers too :-D. "Bar for entry" is far lower than it may look like at first.
<OscarL>
glassnerves: if you don't feel like bug-fixing... you could try either writting apps you think Haiku still miss, or helping port stuff (apps, drivers) from other OSes, for example.
<OscarL>
(I hope to be able to muster enough focus to actually read them myself some day :-D)
<OscarL>
glassnerves: in general, I personnaly find Haiku's repo easier to navigate than other projects. Getting yourself a "git clone" you can navigate (I tend to abuse the TextSearch Tracker addon while doing so) might help you figure out stuff faster.
<OscarL>
should be. IIRC, the page is just a trac query (so it always shows updated info)
<OscarL>
duh, from that page: "(Note: the following list is the result of a dynamic query)", so yeah, should be updated :-)
<OscarL>
glassnerves: something to consider too, specially while you're "new"... take notes about things you find confusing on the current docs. Once you "understand" things... it gets difficult to see where new people can struggle with current instructions/tips/docs.
<OscarL>
In general... helping with documentation (even just by poiting difficult parts) is also pretty useful to the project.
<glassnerves>
I see, thanks.
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<Begasus[m]>
g'morning peeps
<linuxuser01>
@Begasus[m] hello
<Begasus[m]>
hi linuxuser01 , long time no see
<linuxuser01>
yeah
<linuxuser01>
school eats up my time
<linuxuser01>
8th grade anyway :)
<Begasus[m]>
keeps you off the street :)
<linuxuser01>
maybe, maybe
<linuxuser01>
summer holidays passed too fast :/
<Begasus[m]>
how long does it last there?
<Begasus[m]>
woot, major python packages update :)
<Begasus[m]>
thanks OscarL :)
<Begasus[m]>
there, cleaned up remaining python39* packages here
<OscarL>
Morning Begasus[m]!!! (about to disconnect here in a couple of minutes).
<OscarL>
re: python packages... yeah... brain wasn't braining so well, so I at least managed to put it to do some needed clean up tasks :-)
* OscarL
disconnects to save some data for next days.
<OscarL>
See you around soon Begasus[m], have a great day!
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<Begasus[m]>
bugger, tl
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<phschafft>
Góooòdmorrrning Hàaaaíikuland.
<Habbie>
morgen!
* phschafft
nods to Habbie, then goes on to check the cookie bowl.
<Molnija>
hi phschafft what are the diacritics supposed to signal
<phschafft>
I was so sure someone would want to talk about them, then the thing was just meant as a fun way to enter the channel.
<phschafft>
however I was mentally preparing for someone pointing out that they are (by their understanding) plain wrong. wasn't prepared for someone to ask non-angry.
<phschafft>
Molnija: they are supposed to signal that my mood this morning is as bright as the sun outside my office.
<Molnija>
so, not very?
<Molnija>
or is it not late enough into winter for that yet
<phschafft>
given I'm in the northern hemisphere I would say that the sun is even brither in winter than in summer for any given angle over the horizon.
<phschafft>
*brighter
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<swiftbanana[m]>
Is there a reason why the HaikuPorter wiki tells us to git clone haikuporter instead of installing the package?
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<jmairboeck>
swiftbanana[m]: you can use either, but the package isn't updated so frequently, so you only get the latest changes from git
<swiftbanana[m]>
Yeah, that makes sense, but then it means you have to manually update haikuporter "often enough"
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<swiftbanana[m]>
I feel like that could be pointed out in the wiki (the fact that there is a package, but that maybe "the prefered way is by git but don’t forget to update yourself")
<swiftbanana[m]>
Maybe I’ll try to help with the wiki
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<whitepaperkat>
how are things in the world of haiku os before i go to far off topic
<whitepaperkat>
i saw there was a few updates to iceweasel
<whitepaperkat>
and a few system related updates
<Begasus[m]>
system related?
<whitepaperkat>
i think it is
<whitepaperkat>
i should have taken i screen shot of it
<whitepaperkat>
for the nighly build of haiku anyways
<whitepaperkat>
nightly i mean sorry cant spell today lol
<Begasus[m]>
maybe nss was involved, but that's no system package :) (afaik)
<whitepaperkat>
oh lol
<whitepaperkat>
youtube works some what better now on iceweasel ive noiced
<whitepaperkat>
but only by a little
<whitepaperkat>
but thats still nice
<whitepaperkat>
meh youtube is bloat
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<bjorkintosh>
s/bloat/ads
<whitepaperkat>
yup
<erysdren>
:P
<erysdren>
one of my friends uses a youtube search frontend like peertube and then downloads them with yt-dlp to watch
<erysdren>
rather than visiting the website directly in any way
<phschafft>
sometimes when I visit friends they show something on yt and I realise how much ads that is. _very_ much wondering why people use it like... at all.
<erysdren>
i have adblock and such
<erysdren>
so i dont have to deal with ads
<erysdren>
also people put up with it because That's Where Internet Video Is
<phschafft>
still they don't seem to mind the ads as they are clearly accepting them.
<erysdren>
most people don't mind advertising, unfortunately
<erysdren>
most people are easily advertised to.
<whitepaperkat>
i have an ad blocker to
<bjorkintosh>
erysdren: that's like the good old days of using limewire to download stuff to watch.
<bjorkintosh>
we were more ... patient back then.
<bjorkintosh>
if we weren't in such a hurry, youtube wouldn't have us by the throat the way it does.
<whitepaperkat>
i also use yt-dlp but only with videos i wanted to save
<erysdren>
people love convenience
<whitepaperkat>
ture
<whitepaperkat>
true
<bjorkintosh>
instant gratification has been mistaken for convenience.
<nipos>
I wonder why people are still using the crappy bloated website rather than other frontends
<erysdren>
because 99% of people don't know about them
<bjorkintosh>
nipos: same reason a lot of people google facebook to get to facebook.
<bjorkintosh>
they just don't know.
<phschafft>
what they lore more than convenience is to rant about something that would be *easily* changeable but not change it because of convenience.
<erysdren>
even if you told them, most people would not be interested
<whitepaperkat>
i left facebook years ago
<nipos>
Neither do I ever want to go to Facebook,nor do I ever "Google" anything.Big Tech can go to hell.
<whitepaperkat>
i second that
* phschafft
just returns to his editor and turns up the volume (of the radio).
<erysdren>
too bad most people don't think about this as much as we do
<erysdren>
the very fact that we are having this conversation on the Haiku IRC channel means that we are way more computer-pilled than almost everyone
<erysdren>
and that's not necessarily a good quality
<nipos>
Not that I personally ever consume content from that awful site,but QMPlay2 is a great way to watch Youtube stuff on Haiku.It's a Qt application,so almost native,and doesn't have ads and trackers,and it runs smoother than the web bloat.
<whitepaperkat>
ive tried to get my friends to use something like mastodon but that wasnt happening
<whitepaperkat>
qmplay is nice
<bjorkintosh>
whitepaperkat: my friends have tried me to switch to such things too. I refused.
<bjorkintosh>
sign-up fatigue
<whitepaperkat>
i see
<bjorkintosh>
I ... just don't care.
<whitepaperkat>
there was one irl friend i used to talk to on bitmessage but
<whitepaperkat>
but eeh
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<NovaCat[sweecodes][m]>
I did get my friends to use mastodon and IRC :D
<whitepaperkat>
nice
<bjorkintosh>
I use telegraph because of 2 friends, and messenger because of 5, and google chat because of work, and teams because of work, and every now and then, someone wants me to use zoom, and then there's whatsapp .. and then there's ...
<erysdren>
i have not been able to get my friends off discord whatsoever.
<bjorkintosh>
enough!
<whitepaperkat>
fuck discord
<bjorkintosh>
signal because of one friend.
<bjorkintosh>
discord because of a tiny handful, slack because of a tiny group...
<nipos>
Yeah,fuck discord,that's the worst nightmare of all.
<whitepaperkat>
oh yeah
<erysdren>
i am still on discord because i have dozens of friends there and i'm in like 30 servers
<NovaCat[sweecodes][m]>
speaking of irc I'm gonna join this channel on my irc client instead of matrix
<erysdren>
i am very active there, i just fucking hate it at the same time
<whitepaperkat>
i left discord years ago aswell
<bjorkintosh>
and then there's IRC, the oldest one I still use. so when someone tells me "mastodon", or "bluesky" or whatever else. I simply. don't. care.
<whitepaperkat>
now i just use irc
<bjorkintosh>
sign-up fatigue is a thing.
<nipos>
I mostly use SMS in real life because you don't have to install anything to use it (and nobody is going to install something just for me).Or email if we need to send images.
<erysdren>
mastodon and bluesky are not IM chats, but "social media" like twitter
<whitepaperkat>
irc is love irc is life
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<swee>
test
<erysdren>
test
<whitepaperkat>
i also used to self host an xmpp server
<erysdren>
i also self-host an XMPP server and only 3 friends came over
<erysdren>
and they're still on discord simultainiously, so meh.
<nipos>
I use IRC over the XMPP bridge,feels more convenient for me.And people can directly contact me on XMPP,obviously.And then there's AIM that I should use a lot more.
<swee>
i currently selfhost xmpp but right now it's just for me to stay on one MUC
<bjorkintosh>
oh. and don't forget the OG: email.
<whitepaperkat>
prosody was my server of choice
<swee>
same
<swee>
i currently run it on a freebsd vm
<whitepaperkat>
nice
<whitepaperkat>
why a vm though
<swee>
infact my setup on this box are all separated in vms with kvm and libvirt, it's like a more advanced proxmox if i could say
<whitepaperkat>
oh
<whitepaperkat>
nice
<phschafft>
this is 2025, I hardly see why run any software outside a VM.
<bjorkintosh>
phschafft: because you want performance sometimes?
<Begasus[m]>
OK, seems LyX needs aspell for spell-check :)
<whitepaperkat>
i still do but thats b c im kind of a dummy
<whitepaperkat>
i would run say some thing like an irc server under a user
<swee>
i'll get a screenshot
<nipos>
I don't get that container hype at all.Stuff like Docker just makes things incredibly more complicated for no reason.I run my stuff on bare metal FreeBSD servers,and the different services run as different system users.
<whitepaperkat>
only its debian i should use freebsd for that though
<whitepaperkat>
or some other distro
<swiftbanana[m]>
Because with containers there is almost no overhead and you have perfect control and isolation on the environment
<swiftbanana[m]>
Of course there are downsides
<swiftbanana[m]>
That is why bare metal makes sense in a lot of cases
<whitepaperkat>
mv's take up more space
<whitepaperkat>
i think
<whitepaperkat>
and resources
<swiftbanana[m]>
But if you need operational qualification and seemless deployment a container has much to offer
<swee>
i mean yeah vms will use a bit more resources because its running another kernel
<nipos>
Perfect control is what I have without Docker.I see where the data is and can directly access the processes and change files if needed and all.With Docker,it's not impossible,but so complicated that you don't want to do it.
<swiftbanana[m]>
No, I mean
<swiftbanana[m]>
The person building the docker have perfect control over the environment the person using the docker will have
<swiftbanana[m]>
Of course if it is for your own server at home it doesn’t make as much sense
<swiftbanana[m]>
(Assuming you are building and consuming the image)
<jezek2>
I tried once Docker in a chroot, apparently they don't know that chroot exists so it failed spectacularly and left a mess behind with various processes and stuff :D
<swiftbanana[m]>
Yeah nothing is perfect
<swiftbanana[m]>
But, for example
<swiftbanana[m]>
In my company you have a lot of paperwork for qualifying and deploying software that just goes away with docker because once its qualifyed you can just deploy
<swiftbanana[m]>
You don’t have to show that the operational computer is exactly the same as the qualification one
<swiftbanana[m]>
Because they effectively are
<swiftbanana[m]>
But of course, this is not something for everyone and every use-cases
<jezek2>
dunno I prefer software that just works everywhere (ideally a single binary), than Bring-Your-Own-Operating-System solutions :D
<jezek2>
but it has its place for some things
<jezek2>
but I prefer VMs for that
<nipos>
In my company,I only have to use a normal Windows machine for the usual SAP and Office stuff and don't have to worry about the server side,luckily :D
<nipos>
But yeah,I also prefer portable software that just works,no big beasts that bring their own operating system as container
<swiftbanana[m]>
Yeah but "single binary for everything" often only works on your computer
<swiftbanana[m]>
Because it lacks a lib
<swiftbanana[m]>
Or it is not the good version of the lib
<swiftbanana[m]>
Or was built for a more recent cpu
<nipos>
I prefer to compile stuff from source if it's not in the FreeBSD repo.That normally works,except if the dev doesn't give a fuck about BSD at all
<jezek2>
I have binaries that are binary compatible with ~20 year old linux distros, all it took is like 5-10 lines of symver linking stuff so I can compile using the latest compiler/libc but still be compatible
<swiftbanana[m]>
But yeah, I too like it when binaries just work ah ah
<jezek2>
the problem is that developers have bad attitude and simply don't care about this stuff even when it's not hard
<jezek2>
so then you have a cummulative effect of dependencies that prevent such compatibility
<jezek2>
also I never understood the need to remove say 1000 lines of compat code just for the sake of it and breaking compatibility for no reason
<swee>
some of those single binaries for linux wouldn't even work on my musl systems :'D
<nipos>
Haiku is a great example how binary compatibility can work if done right.Here you can upload your HPKGs,someone else can download them and they will just work.Except when they depend on GTK/Qt dependency hell.But native apps just work.
<jezek2>
yeah, haiku is great in this :)
<swiftbanana[m]>
Yeah
<swiftbanana[m]>
Anyway, I think docker is one of the many many many solutions to a not that simple problem
<phschafft>
bjorkintosh: for all resources but GPU I must say I fail to noice a difference. and as for GPU power there are a few things to consider, but still totally possible.
<phschafft>
(note that I don't claim that all operating systems in existance play nicely with all VM solutions in existance. nor that all combinations are useful)
<bjorkintosh>
you must have a newer computer.
<bjorkintosh>
this computer is 15 years old.
<swiftbanana[m]>
(And I def not need it nor want it at home =‘D, docker that is)
<phschafft>
I run full desktop virtualisation since pentium II times.
<bjorkintosh>
ah. I like decent performance.
<gordonjcp>
I run video editing software in a container
<gordonjcp>
I run about half a dozen Windows 7 machines in qemu, exposing their consoles over VNC using Apache Guacamole
<phschafft>
bjorkintosh: any I don't think I own a single PC that is newer than 10 years. for most I'm not sure how old they are as I get all my stuff second hand.
<gordonjcp>
you can do some quite challenging things with VMs and containers
<bjorkintosh>
phschafft: so which OSes do you run?
<bjorkintosh>
I'll tell you a silly story. I needed to install FPGA software. it run on windows, but I didn't have windows, so I used virtualbox to emulate it. I succesfully installed the software, but guess what it was doing? it was running a redhat emulator in windows, in order to run the software.
<phschafft>
everything remotly unix-y but mac, differnet flavours of DOSish stuff, as well as limited range of windows installs (provided by our clients).
<bjorkintosh>
so I had ubuntu running vbox, running windows, running its own emulator, running redhat, running the software.
<bjorkintosh>
it was DOG slow!
<jezek2>
bjorkintosh: what FPGA vendor?
<phschafft>
the DOSish stuff sometimes gives you a hard time.
<phschafft>
bjorkintosh: sounds like there was some problem.
<gordonjcp>
bjorkintosh: this is a bit like running DaVinci Resolve in not-Rocky
<gordonjcp>
bjorkintosh: I can install it in Ubuntu bare metal, but it's less hassle for various reasons to run it within a Docker container that presents a Rocky userland
<phschafft>
I mean as long as the VM is using only CPU and RAM it is as fast as the host. only when it interacts with the outside world it might be slower.
<bjorkintosh>
jezek2: it was for xilinx spartan 3.
<bjorkintosh>
now, I have a dedicated proxmox machine just for running virtual machines.
<bjorkintosh>
it's so much simpler.
<jezek2>
bjorkintosh: was it based on ISE or something older? but weird I used ISE for spartan 6 and it looked native on windows
<bjorkintosh>
jezek2: ISE yes.
<bjorkintosh>
for Spartan 3.
<bjorkintosh>
so you know it's ancient.
<jezek2>
yeah
<bjorkintosh>
and now the damned thing is obsolete.
<jezek2>
bjorkintosh: but lattice was a bit funny, they support only specific linux distros, so I saw it supported redhat, so I installed centos, it worked but was weirdly buggy (most of the IP configurators didn't work), so after realizing it's the problem with the tools and not my understanding of it, I tried to just move it to debian and it worked flawlessly there despite being unsupported :D
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<bjorkintosh>
jezek2: so are you still playing with FPGAs?
<jezek2>
not really these days
<jezek2>
but have researched/developed quite interesting stuff back then (mostly related to CPU designs), I will maybe use it someday for something :D
<nekobot>
• korli (f6f17b5d): llvm21: reduce targets for x86
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<phschafft>
the DOS prompt command takes quotes literal. hence the need for some of the escapes.
<erysdren>
indeed
<phschafft>
what is a bit strange is $E for escape. that makes only sense when you have loaded ansi.sys or similar.
<phschafft>
however that was something I think MS was never happy with.
<phschafft>
so I'm always a bit confused why it got this prominent spot. however most likely the developers just added that as, in reality, happy or not, this was technically the best option.