<stellarpower_[m]>
Hi, just a quick question I was pondering, what are people's thoughts on modernising the codebase to more recent C++ standards? Has anyone done an analysis on it? I'd hope it would speed up development (and improve safety) going forwards. C++26 is no doubt going to be huge with reflection etc. Appears that GCC's old ABI support would be an issue, but GCC2 and maybe breaking changes for things like std::string (I guess the stdlib isn't
<stellarpower_[m]>
used in core components but only for userspace programs). I remember doing a quick analysis a few years ago on the possibility of a shim layer for old BeOS applications, seemed like exceptions and RTTI might be workable but object layout is the real blocker. Have people looked into adding old ABI support to something like a recent clang recently? And is running old binaries still a core target from users, or are more users interested
<stellarpower_[m]>
these days in just running the GCC4 version? Cheers
<waddlesplash>
we don't really use the STL at all, except in a small number of places
<waddlesplash>
most recent new C++ features just seem terrible to me. Some are good, but the general direction isn't great
<waddlesplash>
The codebase is pretty clean and readable for the most part, it's far more pleasant than a lot of other codebases, OS or not, just to read let alone work in. I don't really know if we need to "modernize" it too much actually. Just implement more features and fix bugs :)
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<Halian>
o/
<waddlesplash>
stellarpower_[m]: and adding old ABI support to Clang would probably be annoying, so nobody's done it. If you want to, feel free, that sounds interesting indeed :)
<waddlesplash>
aside from a few pieces of the bootloader, the OS can be compiled with Clang (with the standard modern ABI), and it works
<stellarpower_[m]>
<waddlesplash> "most recent new C++ features..." <- I guess that's where we wouldn't see eye-to-eye then 😅. For me there's so much good stuff coming in and it's naturally getting complicated but that cleaner nicer language I think is emerging, just tied down by everything else. I never write tests, can;t justify the time, but there's a lot you can use to get the compiler to verify your code before you before it runs and get rid of
<stellarpower_[m]>
static analysis problems etc.
<waddlesplash>
without a Rust-style borrow checker static analysis only goes so far, tests are a must
<stellarpower_[m]>
I haven't checked the codebase in a good while but I remember before looking at the macros for a start as there seemed to be a big mishmash of different styles in each file. Which TBH not an inherent issue as I prefer better-quality code that's been worked on by multiple people than consistency for consistency's sake alone.
<waddlesplash>
but even then there are things in OS code that are hard to test, race conditions and the like...
<stellarpower_[m]>
Well sure, for something like this. But I'd get serious complaints from work if I ever wrote a unit test XD
<waddlesplash>
well, strange work environment then lol
<waddlesplash>
Haiku has a fair number of unit tests and could really use more
<waddlesplash>
anyway I just wrote a change this evening that took multiple rounds for me to get the atomics and thread synchronization right, and I've written a bunch of these sorts of changes by now
<stellarpower_[m]>
I'd be wasting clients' time. They need it done and they need it last month, always. We just run it and see. Testsuites and review doesn't happen, if it works half the time that;s good enough cause we are always starting form scratch again.
<waddlesplash>
well, with an environment like that, no wonder you are thinking about never writing code again :P
<waddlesplash>
what files were you looking at with a mishmash of styles in Haiku? we are actually pretty consistent at the end of the day
<waddlesplash>
files imported from elsewhere, yes, but those will have different copyright headers clearly identifying them as import code
<stellarpower_[m]>
Yeah but I guess the flipside is I'd definitely not want to be paid less to have to check everything in rigorously and do agile and all the software development stuff and Jira tickets and who knows what.
<waddlesplash>
well, I don't do AGILE lol
<waddlesplash>
but I do get paid less, that's true
<stellarpower_[m]>
I don't know, it was four years ago now and buried on a hard drive somewhere.
<stellarpower_[m]>
You take high-stress or take boredom it seems to me. Don;t necessarily advocate high-stress but actually it was around that time I tried to see if I could do some work for Haiku as I was trying ot get a mortgage and even now I still don't have one, hoping to have an offer accepted but it all means nothing compared to property prices really.
<stellarpower_[m]>
Anyway
<stellarpower_[m]>
Fair enough if there's no impetus. Personally I use constexpr all the time and I find it means even if I don;t write tests, the amount I have to test is much lower when it comes round to it, as it won;t build if the code is wrong.
<stellarpower_[m]>
* drive somewhere. I think things like multiple definitions of STR() and various utility macros strewn across bits of the system, plus different formats for header guards etc.
<stellarpower_[m]>
I would say though from multiple github projects etc. I find people often say there's no time for refactoring when they have bugs and features as mentioned, yet then if you use the best available it means you get those done in less time. But yeah, not looked at the source in a while to see, just an observation that keeps cropping up. Never cease to find copy-paste somewhere.
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<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: kinda like in the OpenBeOS days
<NaGERST>
wonder what the ratio is now though to devs/users.
<NaGERST>
geist: cool to see you! Do you still do newos kernel development outside of haiku?
<geist>
heya
<NaGERST>
I just love that there is so many familiar names here.
<geist>
nah not really, i work on another one called LittleKernel
<NaGERST>
20 years later.
<Begasus[m]>
g'morning peeps
<geist>
and other random projects
<Begasus[m]>
HI NaGERST ! :)
<janking>
Good morning to you all :)
<NaGERST>
geist: target?
<Begasus[m]>
geist still alive too I see :)
<geist>
haha yep still here
<geist>
also at work i work on Fuchsia, which derives from LK
<geist>
which has some newos dna sort of
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: heh you youngling are not allowed to die before me.
<geist>
so there's a lineage
<geist>
oh that reminds me i need to break out the beboxen and get them working again. i want to show them off at the next retro hardware meetup here in seattle
<NaGERST>
is fuschia going to be on devices?
<Begasus[m]>
lol youngling :P
<geist>
it already is
<geist>
and LK is on *tons* of devices
<Begasus[m]>
nice geist !
<Begasus[m]>
may I ask your age NaGERST ?
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: we alsready established this.... almost a month older than you.
<NaGERST>
thus the funny youngling comment
<Begasus[m]>
too much going on in the brain to keep up NaGERST :D
<geist>
i gotta admit i dont recognize NaGERST as a handle
<geist>
if you were using something else back in the day
<Begasus[m]>
with all your "free" time you should join us at haikuports :P
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: i should.
<Begasus[m]>
bugger ... /sources/kmymoney-5.2.1/kmymoney/misc/kmm_codec.cpp:248:52: error: no matching function for call to 'QStringDecoder::QStringDecoder(QString)'
<Begasus[m]>
maybe Qt mismatch? (works here with 6.9.0) :/
<Begasus[m]>
someone could check if current Qt6 has QStringDecoder ?
<Begasus[m]>
part of qt6-base
<janking>
Good morning Begasus[m]
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: Do you have a Qt 5* build environment? Since it should work with Qt 5
<Begasus[m]>
g'morning janking :)
<janking>
:)
<NaGERST>
howdy janking
<janking>
:)
<Begasus[m]>
I do NaGERST , but I'm trying to move away from Qt5 where I can :)
<NaGERST>
i understand that, but the last update to the official kmymoney was in june 2020, so you have to either do the update yourself or use the qt5 version.
<Begasus[m]>
latest update on kmymoney was yesterday or the day before (bugfix) :)
<NaGERST>
i dont mind qt5, it is a bot slower on multithreaded machines, but not bad. At least it beats GTK in almost all regards.
<Begasus[m]>
+1 there :)
<Ellenor>
my "pointless fork" muscle is itching
<NaGERST>
Ellenor: Trust me, i have been there.
<Begasus[m]>
k right, Qt 6.7.2 doesn't have it
<NaGERST>
i have also made drivers for devices that will never be used by anyone but me on haiku... Since i also designed the device.
<Begasus[m]>
oh, forget haikuports then and go for the big one (Haiku) then NaGERST :)
<Begasus[m]>
should report this upstream for kmymoney
<NaGERST>
yes you should, make clear to the kde team that haiku does no longer support *version* of the lib required. They are really nice people and usually really great to work with. The Qt crowd is amazing, to an extent that microsoft, IBM/redhat can never understand.
<Begasus[m]>
heh
<Begasus[m]>
their PIM packages already need Qt >= 6.8
<Begasus[m]>
so we're out for that
<NaGERST>
req?
<Begasus[m]>
doesn't take too long also before everything else moves up in Qt requirement
<NaGERST>
true
<Begasus[m]>
well, some "can" be tricked into building with 6.7.2, but that's pushing the limit
<Begasus[m]>
did a check for 6.9.0 on 32bit, but had build failures on qt-multimedia iirc
<NaGERST>
yes i had the same..
<Begasus[m]>
so it's not ready to replace/update 6.7.2
<Begasus[m]>
working "fine" so far on 64bit though
<Begasus[m]>
still something fishy with video and qt-multimedia, but I can live with that for now, 6.10 beta's even has issues with sound, so that's bad
<NaGERST>
but i dont care about 32bit any more. noone is going to run haiku on a Cyrix or Vica C3/C7 any more now that yellowTab is dead.
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<NaGERST>
I still want one though
<Begasus[m]>
still keep it around do mainly do some test builds/run
<NaGERST>
I asked Bernd at the bankruptcy if i could buy one... he said he had none to sell.
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: You even had that site for zeta games, right?
<NaGERST>
awesome work
<Begasus[m]>
I know he had quite a collection back then
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, long time ago :D
<NaGERST>
Finding one on ebay is impossible
<Begasus[m]>
was a co-operation with Bernd
<NaGERST>
he is a nice guy, regardless what people say
<Begasus[m]>
well, Bernd did mostly the hosting :D
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, still count him in as one of my dear friends
<NaGERST>
I think it could have worked out if he had gotten the license from access.
<Begasus[m]>
good old times :) (still remembers the visit to YT headquorters) :D
<NaGERST>
bas long as the amiga battles could be avoided
<Ellenor>
?
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: i was never there, but i saw the streams and Bernd at that time had a very silly beard.
<Begasus[m]>
we've got Haiku now, plenty to play around :D
<Begasus[m]>
heh
<Begasus[m]>
he hasn't changed much (looking at his profil at LinkdIn) :)
<Begasus[m]>
mind the typos* :D
<NaGERST>
Bernd bragged to me once that he can travel from munchen to frankfurt in his fancy car in a very short time. (i hate cars) so i just said "yeah"
<NaGERST>
nice guy though
<Begasus[m]>
He's a businessman, but I liked the person he is
<Begasus[m]>
spellcheck works pretty good in NeoChat :)
<NaGERST>
I like him as well. He tried to save BeOS in his own way, and that fantastic in its own right.
<NaGERST>
Begasus[m]: did you get dvtm to build on haiku?
<Begasus[m]>
don't think I tried that NaGERST ?
<NaGERST>
I think i asked you to try my build last time... maybe i am halucinating
<NaGERST>
it is a simple multiplexer that does multiwindow and uses way less cpu than tmux
<NaGERST>
it builds fine now from git so the point is moot
<Begasus[m]>
source?
<NaGERST>
dvtm? or my source?
<Begasus[m]>
I'm trying to keep up with KDE stuff these days, and sometimes just the regular stuff, so lot's on my plate :)
<NaGERST>
oh lord imagine the companies that relies on that.... and then i realized they dont update most of their software ever. The nuke plants never get updates, the sawmills the same
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<Begasus[m]>
;)
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<Begasus[m]>
OscarL if you catch up .... objcopy: '/packages/libxcb-1.17.0-1/.self/lib/libxcb-dri3.so.0.0.0': No such file
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<OscarL>
Morning Begasus[m]. Where do you get that? (both libxcb and xcb_proto build and looked OK here, will double check)
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<Begasus[m]>
while packaging OscarL :) libxcb_dri3 version is different
<Begasus[m]>
also missing some references for libxcb_dbe
<OscarL>
odd. launched a new build. thanks for the heads up.
<Begasus[m]>
packaging for the debuginfopackage "should" fail on that
<Begasus[m]>
ps, g'morning OscarL :)
<OscarL>
same to you Begasus[m] :-)
<Begasus[m]>
do you check, or do I push my changes to your branch? :)
<Begasus[m]>
test case seems fine
<OscarL>
I *did* stopped an hp run right after build, to check libversions before continuing packaging... didn't found anything weird, brain must have not being working 100% (as usual :-D)
<Begasus[m]>
heh
<OscarL>
if you have alreadyh resolved it... feel free to push and merge as you see it fit.
<Begasus[m]>
np, that's why it's good to have an extra pair of eyes :)
<OscarL>
(thus why I at least was smart enough as to request a review from you :-D)
<Begasus[m]>
failed build for kmymoney kept me busy, so only just started, but should be fine here now
<Begasus[m]>
will push the changes so you can see the difference
<OscarL>
seein that error now. Brain must have beein running low on fumes last night, I guess :-D
<Begasus[m]>
pushed
<Begasus[m]>
added another commit, shows what's been changed that way
<OscarL>
LGTM.
<Begasus[m]>
:)
<OscarL>
shall I git the green button?
<Begasus[m]>
k, let's do some testing on it
<OscarL>
(man... need some coffee)
<Begasus[m]>
me need a refill :)
<Begasus[m]>
fltk uses it also in build
<OscarL>
btw, Begasus[m]. How/where do you push to update PRs? (haven't tried that yet)
<OscarL>
So... you push to *my* (ie: the OG author's repo)... sounds odd, but hey... if it works.
<Begasus[m]>
first "git fetch oscarl" then "git checkout --track ..." etc
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, only doesn't work if remote has it disabled
<OscarL>
given that you don't have write access to the other people's repos, I guess github does some magic behind the scenes?
<Begasus[m]>
I only use it when needed, not that often
<OscarL>
(thus why I was wondering how that works, because doesn't seems like it creates branches on HaikuPorts repo either)
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, I wondered how korli did that back then too :)
<Begasus[m]>
time to update fltk also I guess
* OscarL
goes to make some coffee before falling asleep onto the keyboard.
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<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: seeing you're commit in my repo. I guess that's part of the "Maintainers are allowed to edit this pull request." checkbox on the PR page is for (I thought it was mostly to allow title/description edits and such).
<OscarL>
So the only "magic" github is doing here, is automatically granting maintainers push rights into branches with open PRs, I guess. Makes more sense than other esoteric scenarios I had in my head :-D
<Begasus[m]>
right OscarL :)
<OscarL>
in any case... good to know, so I can also make use of that feature if needed.
<Begasus[m]>
could be handy is cases where PR's are abandond too
<Begasus[m]>
hmm fltk build static libraries :P
<OscarL>
(launching a local build with your fixes, will try to find something small to build against it)
<Begasus[m]>
+1
<Begasus[m]>
Warning: POLICY WARNING: no matching provides "cmd:blocks" for "bin/blocks"
<Begasus[m]>
and a few others ... bah :P
<Begasus[m]>
hmm those are examples I guess, not needed
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* OscarL
tries building xcb_utils_keysyms.
<OscarL>
not much else small enough. do you have retext and/or labplot tarballs still available Begasus[m]?
<Begasus[m]>
still read that name wrong :P
<Begasus[m]>
well, labplot has been fixed for libxcb
<Begasus[m]>
I "could" run a build without the patch
<OscarL>
(maybe this branch is pre-labplot fixes, thus why I still got a hit for libxcb on it :-D)
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: nah... too much trouble. building libfm_qt as is sounds better.
<Begasus[m]>
I think I left it in, but disabled
<OscarL>
build for xcb_utils_keysyms went OK, FWIW.
<Begasus[m]>
fltk ok here too
<Begasus[m]>
still need to install launch it to be sure though
<nephele>
ah, this critizises recipes, not the live repo
<OscarL>
and --check-package-repository-consistency for the "other" report.
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<OscarL>
nephele: re: kSomething, most (if not all) seems due to just one (at worst two) packages, really. Not sure what's going on with them. Didn't saw anything obviously wrong when I've checked them yesterday :-/
<Begasus[m]>
still can't wrap my head around those positives on those messages
<nephele>
mostly speaks to us having many ksomethings :)
<OscarL>
whatever the problem with libkf6crash is... should clear a *bunch* of those once resolved.
<Begasus[m]>
if someone is able to move them into knatives ... :P
<nephele>
what's the problem with that lib OscarL?
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, already added it to KIO yesterday
<Begasus[m]>
no changes
<OscarL>
if only we knew some Haiku developers... :-P
<OscarL>
nephele: as mentioned, no idea what's going on there, sadly.
<OscarL>
just that haikuporter's consistency check seems to flag it for some reason.
<nephele>
what's a haiku developer? *looks around the room*
<nephele>
I kinda want to try and start that haikudepot patch
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<nephele>
the new proposed version looks very good
<Begasus[m]>
the one in the forum?
<nephele>
yes
<Begasus[m]>
does have a thing for it yes, didn't like so much the changes for Tracker though :) a bit too much gnome (at least the first ones)
<nephele>
well, haikudepot is "just" layouting changes to improve the flow
<Begasus[m]>
right
<nephele>
the tracker ones are stuff for s decorator, those are fine if someone wants to implement them optionally
<nephele>
and some elements are interesting, like the breadcrumb, which is a control to let you quickyl go up severall folders
<nephele>
... though less usefull on haiku since our folders don't go that deep compared to linux or something
<nephele>
(we have /yourusbdrive/folder/data while they have /run/media/<userid>/<mountpoint>/folder/data ...)
<nephele>
ah, well that control works differently, it doesn't give you that overview.... but yes, good point
<OscarL>
re: deep folders... settings dir is already more than deep enough IMO :-)
<nephele>
to be honest i kind of forgot about that
<Begasus[m]>
heh
<nephele>
maybe this could also get a hint or higlight that it is openable?
<OscarL>
and working with HaikuPorter stuff... paths can get pretty hairy too, no Begasus[m]?
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, and that's not always including the workdirs :-)
<nephele>
update -> kdl
<nephele>
meh
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* OscarL
reads the backlog, and notices NaGERST mention of tmux cpu usage. Noticed that on my (slow) machines last I've tried tmux. Would be cool if it was more light-weight.
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<OscarL>
I should patch my haikuporter so it ask the user for confirmation before installing stuff via pkgman (listing what would be needed).
* OscarL
tries to find his to-do list of the week.
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: xcb_utils_keysyms still builds OK. As your fltk tests went OK... shall we just merge the xcb PR and see if it improve things on the reports?
<nephele>
Hmm, some of the layout things in haikudepot are a bit confusing
<OscarL>
btw... any idea why we have xcb_utils_keysyms at all?
<nephele>
but i have a side-by-side view now
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: looks good to me, are you sure proto will be build before libxcb though?
<nephele>
3DMov is fun
<nephele>
too bad it doesn't play audio
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: it doesn't "builds", it is just a bunch of .xml files and a python module, and doesn't seems to require libxcb at all.
<Begasus[m]>
xcb-proto doesn't require libxcb, it's the other way around :)
<OscarL>
package could use a clean up (making it into a proper _python310 and such... but given that it is only needed by the libxcb recipe...
<OscarL>
libxcb requires devel:xcb_proto, if haikuporter sees both .recipes updated at the same time... I expect it to first build xcb_proto.
<OscarL>
isn't that how things usually go?
<Begasus[m]>
I know libxcb failed on that with the old xcb-proto
<OscarL>
yes, thus why I updated them.
<Begasus[m]>
xcb-proto is already available, haikuporter doesn't know it needs to wait for the new one
<nephele>
lol, we have so little apps in "education" that it doesn't fill my listview
<Begasus[m]>
need some K ones? :P
<nephele>
it's already like 30% k ones
<Begasus[m]>
still room for some more then :P
* Begasus[m]
ducks
<nephele>
i would prefer some more native apps
<Begasus[m]>
;)
<nephele>
we have an OSM map already huh
<nephele>
kde marble
<nephele>
it's a ball
<Begasus[m]>
it's been around for ages :)
<nephele>
we should have an openstreetmaps map in the default install eventually
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: removed all xcb related packages from Haikuporter's "package" dir... have xcb_proto 1.13.4 installed in system. will attempt to build libxcb 1.17.0 from this branch with both libxcb and xcb_proto updated to 1.17.0.
<Begasus[m]>
there is osmtools?
<OscarL>
sounds good?
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL:
<Begasus[m]>
remove/move all from haikuports packagess dir yes
<OscarL>
yeah, it picked 1.13.4 :-(
<Begasus[m]>
then just launch a build for new libxcb
<Begasus[m]>
;)
<Begasus[m]>
see :P
<Begasus[m]>
even if those are only xml files, it checks the version
<OscarL>
I should put a version constraint instead of spliting the PR :-D
<OscarL>
both packages need to be in sync anyway.
<Begasus[m]>
== $portVersion
<Begasus[m]>
right
<OscarL>
will try that.
<nephele>
how does the rating UI look in haikudepot?
<Begasus[m]>
on the devel:xcb-proto :)
<Begasus[m]>
no idea nephele , I don't think I have an account there
<Begasus[m]>
err how do you mean nephele ?
<Begasus[m]>
there are stars iirc that you can give?
<nephele>
i don't have an account either Begasus[m]
<nephele>
well, people wrote reviews... clearly they did that somehow :P
<Begasus[m]>
you need an account for that
<Begasus[m]>
hover over the stars and a button appears
<nephele>
yes, and how's the UI look for that? :D
<Begasus[m]>
I guess clicking it sends you to your account?
<nephele>
What UI?
<nephele>
I don't have anything to click? :P
<OscarL>
"Fetching package for devel:xcb_proto == 1.17.0" motherf...
<OscarL>
I guess that would work in buildmaster mode, right? :-D
<OscarL>
(getting an "unable to resolve..." down here, as I'm using "--get-dependencies".... will try without it)
<nephele>
asking since that control in the header is removed in the redesign
<Begasus[m]>
it does, check for instance qmplay2
<Begasus[m]>
well no control in that tab
<Begasus[m]>
but current ratings gathered from upstream?
<nephele>
?
<Begasus[m]>
I see rating numbers and comments from users in the ratings tab for qmplay2
<nephele>
oh by the way OscarL
<nephele>
i figured out why my git is in german
<nephele>
it's cus my entire UI is
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: sure. changing "--get-dependencies" for "--all-dependencies" triggers the xcb_proto 1.17.0 build first. but also a bazillion more packages :-D
<Begasus[m]>
lol
<nephele>
ever since humdinger made me german language manager i'm dogfooding it
<Begasus[m]>
OscarL: first build xcb-proto to make libxcb happy :P
<OscarL>
but if I do it manually... then am I really testing what I want to test? (that buildmaster will use the right order, now that I have the version constraint).
<Begasus[m]>
buildmaster will keep libxcb waiting untill xcb-proto is finished
* OscarL
tries anyway
<Begasus[m]>
I do it all over the place for the kde frameworks
<OscarL>
k. in any case... that version constraint should be there.
<Begasus[m]>
to make sure they are build in the right order
<OscarL>
so at least we got that right.
<OscarL>
picked up 1.17.0 from the local "packages" dir.
<OscarL>
will push once build completes.
<Begasus[m]>
yeah, that's how buildmaster does it too
<OscarL>
nephele: heh :-)
<Begasus[m]>
sometimes you see "blocked" packages at the buildmasters, that's for those
<OscarL>
indeed, that was what I was thinking bundling both recipes together, but forgot to add the version constraint. Told you brain was low on gas last night...! (or always :-D)
<Begasus[m]>
hence I mentioned you need more coffee :)
<Begasus[m]>
and I need a faster 32bit machine ...
<OscarL>
also... to be fair... I have comparatively little experience building most stuff that is not python-related :-)
<Begasus[m]>
no problem there, that's also why I asked you, having experienced this makes it easier to understand :)
<OscarL>
+1
<OscarL>
change pushed.
<Begasus[m]>
+1
<Begasus[m]>
now hit that green button :)
<OscarL>
nephele: one way to see this "micromanaging", is /me being mentored by my elders :-)
<Begasus[m]>
lol
<OscarL>
and Begasus[m] is a real elder, am I right? :-P
* OscarL
ducks
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<Begasus[m]>
I can imagine your elders being drained by now :P
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<OscarL>
bah, nephele missed the joke :-)
<nephele>
" hence I mentioned you need more coffee :)" I wrote begasus is a spy for the coffee industry, and then i see that vision has disconnected me again
<nephele>
i don't think that's a conincidence
<nephele>
ever since we got fibre my irc connection seems unreliable
<nephele>
maybe i should start using xmpp+irc
<nephele>
or maybe start a native xmpp room for haiku soonish... only have to implement some more niceties in Renga xD
<nekobot>
• Begasus (e121703b): hxcfloppyemulator, revbump for new fltk (#12694)
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<Begasus[m]>
one to go :)
<OscarL>
nice!
* OscarL
is tring to steal from the tmux .patchset
<Begasus[m]>
errr ... this one isn't playing nice ... checking for updates
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<OscarL>
have -DVERSION="0.6" in CFLAGS, but getting: "error: expected ')' before 'VERSION'" on a line that reads: "puts("foobar-"VERSION"something something")
<OscarL>
erysdren: thanks, the makefile already uses .. VERSION=0.6, and then: CFLAGS += [...] -D\"${VERSION}\" [...]
<erysdren>
aye
<OscarL>
copying by hand from VM is no fun... were I left my clipboard integration? :-/
* OscarL
replaces VERSION with 0.6 and puts sunglasses on while muttering to himself... "another fine bug-fix"
<erysdren>
`-D\"${VERSION}\"` isnt right anyway
<erysdren>
it should be -DVERSION=\"${VERSION}\"
<OscarL>
sorry.. copying manually from VM, and I suck at it.
<erysdren>
no worries
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<erysdren>
good morning
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<erysdren>
lol
<OscarL>
-DVERSION=\"${VERSION}\" <<< is what the .mk file contains. Oh well.
* OscarL
does "hp foobar -c" and starts to panickly hit ^C after realizing he didn't extracted a .patchset yet.
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<Begasus[m]>
jikes!!
<OscarL>
have a .sh file. that starts with "#!/bin/sh", and Haiku insists to treat it as a "Generic file" (binary) even after using "Force identify" :-/
<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: not the first time I've done that, doubt it will be the last :-D. was fast enough this time at least (good thing computer is slow, I guess :-D)
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<Begasus[m]>
plenty like those OscarL
<Begasus[m]>
or they are not writeable or not executable :)
<Begasus[m]>
good thing you cought it in time !
<OscarL>
re: "binary" .sh ... almost makes me wish there was a "respect file extensions, damn it!" setting somewhere.
<OscarL>
even trying to change the file type via FileType faisl, what the hell?
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<OscarL>
after a reboot.. copying said file from ramfs to bfs... only the second attempt to change file type worked... and also only second attempt worked for the original .sh in ramfs. Why am I such a bug magnet? :-D
<grexe>
got an API question re directories - I want to recursively delete a directory (it's just in temp and managed by my App, so I don't care). There is a create_directory() to create a directory with all intermediate dirs in necessary, but no matching remove_directory. There is only the VFS remove_dir which chokes on existing subdirs...
<grexe>
welcome to the club @OscarL :) nice to see you again, still remember your handle!
<OscarL>
hey there grexe :-))
<Begasus[m]>
Hi there grexe
<Begasus[m]>
lmms wants to download a gazilion of plugins
<grexe>
hey @Begasus! yeah, like in the good old Java times with Maven ;-)
* Begasus[m]
runs ....
<Begasus[m]>
:D
<Begasus[m]>
still need to fix that idea.... recipe
<Begasus[m]>
follow up on rizin and wip from PulkoMandy
<Begasus[m]>
... not enough time :P
<OscarL>
grexe: not much of a dev here, but looking at Directory.h ... sounds like you'll need to roll your own "nuke_dir()" by looping over GetNextEntry() + unlink() ?
<Begasus[m]>
only thing that makes sense in that line OscarL is "nuke_dir()" :P
<Begasus[m]>
to me* :)
<OscarL>
might be better to ask on the forum too, grexe.
<grexe>
;-) ok will do, better yet, create an issue on Trac :=)
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<OscarL>
Begasus[m]: I confuse myself half the time, all the time too. :-)
<OscarL>
second program (same author) where I find that -DVERSION=... faiing in a puts("foo" VERSION "bar"). hardcoded that one, now getting a 'VERSION' undeclared at least in other parts of the code. odd.
<OscarL>
(so for some reasing that -DVERSION isn't working right, I guess)
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<janking>
hello
<janking>
shit
<janking>
happens
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<janking>
hello
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<janking>
can u see me?
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<bjorkintosh>
janking: no.
<bjorkintosh>
can you see me janking??
<bjorkintosh>
how many fingers am I holding up?
<scantysnax>
good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night :-)
<janking>
:)
<janking>
sex
<janking>
5 or 7
<Flexmin>
hi
<janking>
hi
<janking>
yes i can se you bjorkintosh
<scantysnax>
so, what's new and exciting?
<bjorkintosh>
scantysnax: time. it passes.
<scantysnax>
indeed.
<OscarL>
got dvtm and abduco .hpkg, now to test them (KDL and or nuclear winter incomming)
<scantysnax>
oh hi OscarL
<OscarL>
hey there scantysnax, hope you're having a good day :-)
<scantysnax>
thanks OscarL, you as well :-)
<Flexmin>
i can see you.
<OscarL>
"dvtm -t HelloWorld" didn't exploded, and exiting left Terminal in good condition. Now I should try to actually learn how to use this thing.
<janking>
good
<Flexmin>
i just installed Haiku :-D
<janking>
good for you
<scantysnax>
Flexmin: welcome.
<OscarL>
hey... this dvtm seems to actually work :-)
<janking>
yes welcome Flexmin
<scantysnax>
OscarL: what is dvtm?
<OscarL>
scantysnax: a "dynamic virtual terminal manager" (think tmux, but without session support)
<scantysnax>
ah, i see. i havve never used such a thing.
<Begasus[m]>
dvtm-0.15 OscarL ?
<Begasus[m]>
hi scanty :)
<OscarL>
the "session support" (to be able to detach/attach to running shell sessions) should be handled by abduco, which I also just built, but have no idea if it will work :-D
<OscarL>
scantysnax: I haven't either, but combined with ssh... might make my VM usage much better (specially considering I don't have clipboard integration on this crappy VBox :-D)
<OscarL>
tried tmux... found out it uses too much CPU for my taste.
<scantysnax>
ah, i see.
<OscarL>
(thus /me trying this dvtm thing, after NaGERST mentioned it, along with it being more efficient than tmux)
<Begasus[m]>
LMMS build in Terminal looks fine, packaged/installed it looks weird :P
<Begasus[m]>
they just fixed that upstream, so should be good on the next update :)
<OscarL>
seems to "return 0", without any output, so I guess that's OK.
<OscarL>
nice.
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<OscarL>
mmm, terminal got all confused now, and even after reset, now clicking in it just writes a lot of escape sequences :-D
<Begasus[m]>
lol
<Begasus[m]>
ghostscript? :P
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<OscarL>
weird, have cmd:vis in TEST_REQUIRES, but "hp dvtm --test" prints: "vis not found; skipping copymode test" (which just ends the testsuite.sh run) :-/
<Begasus[m]>
I think the "vis" is still in the pool :D
<Begasus[m]>
"vis" is Dutch for "fish" :)
<OscarL>
I think the "if ! which vis > /dev/null 2&>1; then" line is failing in the chroot for some reason.
<OscarL>
(works outside the chroot)
<OscarL>
(and the vis .hpkg was active in the --test run :-/)
<Begasus[m]>
k, time to close down here
<OscarL>
be well Begasus[m]!
<Begasus[m]>
letting the fltk thing rest for the night :D
<Begasus[m]>
you too OscarL and peeps
<Begasus[m]>
cya!
<janking>
cu
<jmairboeck>
OscarL: looks like you also need cmd:which
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: ah! good point, thanks a bunch!
<OscarL>
(keep forgetting about that one)
<OscarL>
that was it. now is missing cmd:diff :-D
<OscarL>
(and will most surely bork my terminal at some point, lol)
<jmairboeck>
I'll have a look at perl CGI now
<OscarL>
no pressure! thanks a bunch in advance!
<OscarL>
"diff: UTF-8-demo.txt bad file descriptor", weird.
<jmairboeck>
ramdisk issue?
<OscarL>
could be, but at first I ran it from the workdir (in ramfs), so not sure what's going on :-D
<jmairboeck>
although I had I/O errors also for my "portable Haiku" disk when cleaning some workdirs the other day. I had to kill the VM then. I thought it would be finally the end of that hard-drive, but now it works again.
<jmairboeck>
maybe it was just a connection problem with the USB-SATA adapter
<OscarL>
IIRC there were (are?) some possible issues with some block-caches, but I only half-remember reading about it (after possibly experiencing a similar issue myself)
<OscarL>
like... file in disk was OK, but not on memory.
* OscarL
restarts VM just in case.
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<OscarL>
same "Bad descriptor", screen output was too fast, but seems it is missing the file entirely (at least at some point). Test seem to work "OK" stil outside the chroot.
<OscarL>
(still leaves Terminal unresponsive at the end, though)
<OscarL>
mmm, seems it has an endless loop involving "sleep 1".
<OscarL>
killed that on /bin/bash, Terminal showed "./testsuite.sh", git ^C, and Terminal went back to normal.
<OscarL>
adding missing "cmd:wget" solves the bad descriptor issue on the recipe :-)
<OscarL>
welp, will just add a warning to the recipe about the issues when running "--test".
<OscarL>
was about to open a PR for dvtm... but INSTALL() fails on 32 bits for some reason :-D
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<OscarL>
"permission denied", apparently while trying to write to $dataDir/terminfo. Maybe the difference is that this 32 bits is beta5, and I was on nightly for 64 bits?
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<OscarL>
seems it is due to gcc2 tic vs x86 tic (from ncurses). Sigh.
<Anarchos>
hello
<OscarL>
hello there Anarchos.
<jmairboeck>
OscarL: did you test git instaweb with CGI installed?
<OscarL>
haikuporter doesn't recognizes the ISC license? mmm
<OscarL>
jmairboeck: haven't yet, no.
<Anarchos>
OscarL i put my own licence on github (which is clearly NOT open source) ,and they still have not deactivated my account :)
<jmairboeck>
you probably also could have just installed it with cpan (just "cpan CGI"), although that also installs all dependencies, also those for testing, so that would be quite a few I guess.
<OscarL>
Anarchos: the issue here is... ISC is a "well known" license, feels odd having to add it along with each recipe that uses it.
<OscarL>
(guess we should just add it, I'm just surpriced it isn't there already)
<OscarL>
yeah... was trying to avoid installing too much deps (have limited data plan). Might end up having to avoid git instaweb entirely in the end :-D
<jmairboeck>
the cgi package is just 97 KiB, but it requires uri and html_parser in addition to perl, I didn't check how big they are
<OscarL>
good to know, thanks.
<jmairboeck>
and their dependencies
<OscarL>
right... that was why I was waiting for when/if I get a bit more data, just in case :-D
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<OscarL>
bit weird that perl packages in HaikuPorts have such generic names (instead of being either prefixed or suffixed as on other systems)
<Anarchos>
when i run checkfs consecutively, it show less and less nodes/files/directories....
<Anarchos>
is it the sign of an issue ?
<OscarL>
(trying to open the main Haiku .hpkg with Beezer on 32 bits was a bad idea)
<OscarL>
Anarchos: no clue... will try here and report back.
<OscarL>
3 consecutive runs, same numbers here, Anarchos.
<OscarL>
do you have some process creating and or deleting files in the background?
<Anarchos>
OscarL not sure, cause i moved big folders in /Tmp and no idea what happen at reboot with those
<OscarL>
I think temp gest nucked. I wish it was on RAMFS instead of disk based, but that still caused problems last I've tried (broke ssh, among other things, IIRC)
<OscarL>
s/gest/gets/
<Anarchos>
OscarL speaking of ssh, it seems ssh keys are not generated with the 'Try it!' option of Installer
<Anarchos>
i had to use keygen by hand to be able to login by ssh ...
<Anarchos>
as i wanted to test a modif in app_server, i am not sure how to do that without rebooting on a usb key
<OscarL>
welp... it is an installation media, after all.
<OscarL>
the "Try it!" is more like a bonus. Bet you also had to properly enable root access anyway, right?
<OscarL>
then you have the issue of Installer copying "too much", possibly including said ssh keys (I think at least one user complained about that one in the past)
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<Anarchos>
OscarL no the trouble is that keygen is only launched by post_install.sh, not by 'try it'
<OscarL>
lots of corner-cases.
<Habbie>
hmm, i'd expect installer to rely on the hpkgs, not anything else
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<Anarchos>
Habbie i intended the 'try it' option to give me a full functional haiku, with sshd working.
<OscarL>
Anarchos: feel free to open a ticket if you are convinced that that use-case should be feasible.
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<Habbie>
Anarchos, sure. that is not incompatible with what i said :)
<Anarchos>
OscarL sure, it is a low priority enhancement. But i keep it in the corner of my mind :)
<OscarL>
Habbie: "easy backup mode" in Haiku (and in BeOS IIRC), just run installer and install into a different device :-)
<Anarchos>
OscarL i am more focused on finishing my PR about remote_desktop !
<OscarL>
Habbie: granted, Installer should at least have a checkbox to enable/disable that.
<OscarL>
Anarchos: yeah, I keep getting distracted each time I hit even a minor bug. In any case, remember to file such ticket when you have time.
<Anarchos>
OscarL there is only a 'position of mouse' bug on my PR, but remote_desktop without a mouse was too much annoying !!
<OscarL>
having no mice nor working touchpad on the netbook... I know the feeling :-)
<OscarL>
and KeyCursor, while somewhat useful... still has that double-click issue on Haiku (worked fine on BeOS).
<OscarL>
tried pkgman install cgi, was only missing 2 dependencies, and were all very small.
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<OscarL>
"git instaweb -d python" seems to work fine. Thanks jmairboeck! (in case you read the logs later :-D)
<OscarL>
(need to have "python" in path, or patch a gitweb.py file, though)
<OscarL>
s/path/$PATH/
<Habbie>
that sounds like a bug. it should be looking for python3
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<OscarL_>
Habbie: will patch it on the next git update.
<Habbie>
you or them?
<OscarL_>
I
<Habbie>
ack
<Habbie>
i think they should :)
<OscarL_>
good luck getting everyone on the same page of the python vs python3 naming divide :-/
<Habbie>
python.org had some pretty clear words on it a few years ago
<Habbie>
git instaweb -d python
<Habbie>
env: ‘python’: No such file or directory
<Habbie>
Waiting for 'python' to start .....^C
<Habbie>
i see the situation is just as sad on debian trixie
<OscarL_>
yes, but nowadays... Python 3.14 on Windows, for example... "python" it is.
<Habbie>
ugh really
<OscarL_>
we could make our default Python offer a /bin/python, but that may mask other issues (as outdated recipes not showing anymore on the consisteny reports, and such)
<Habbie>
yeah
<Habbie>
one of the reasons for 'python should not be python3' was to detect problems quickly i thinki
<OscarL_>
and that's from the official builds, heh.
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<OscarL>
will take a break. see you around, folks!
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<janking>
by
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<nephele>
In the future installer should get an option to install to the same device it booted from by resizing the partition, and that would then also call the post install stufff.... i think that is what you'd want Anarchos
<nephele>
having sshd enabled by default in "try it" on the other hand seems bad. you may install severall systems with it and they now all have open sshd and the same keys
<Habbie>
i'd love that ("the partition i did a dd to is now my system") but it won't fix everything for everybody
<Habbie>
yes, key duplication is bad
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<nephele>
hi Habbie, want to give me a hand with the intel driver? :D
<Habbie>
i'd love to but i will go to bed in minutes
<nephele>
hmm, well i just woke up, so i can't relate to that sentiment
<Habbie>
haha
<nephele>
anyway, do you have hints for me on if there is any support for fan curves or other niceties in intel_extreme? I have one of those fancy intel arc gpus, Haiku runs just fine on it with efi framebuffer, but it is LOUD
<Habbie>
ah
<Habbie>
no, i don't know
<Habbie>
haven't tried haiku on my arc laptop either
<nephele>
the thing is, this one was also advertiside with a "quiet bios", that is it should have 0rpm below a certain threahold, and i think for framebuffer usage (even with 240hz) that should probably not be the case
<nephele>
but it seems this has to be implemented in the gpu driver, despite it claiming this is a firmware feature :g
<Habbie>
hehe
<nephele>
wow. i'm getting spam emails about my domain "expiring"
<nephele>
open it and it sais "This is an HTML email. Please view it in HTML client"
<nephele>
This spam email is not accesible
<Anarchos>
nephele i have a 8086:0166 graphics card, but don't know the model
<nephele>
Habbie: can i try to just add this to the intel_extreme to start maybe?
<nephele>
I just pasted your id into duckduckgo to check
<Anarchos>
nephele is there a hope for it to be supported by HAiku ? Last time i tried it didi'nt work so i had to stick to VESA
<nephele>
Habbie: how can i figure out the stuff like which device group it should belong to?
<nephele>
Anarchos: I don't see why not? you already fixed brightness for your one device :P
<Habbie>
nephele, i spent some time with the .. device browser? and i may have relied on linux lspci for a bit
<Anarchos>
not mentioning my GK107M [GeForce GTX 660M], for which all hope is lost :)
<Anarchos>
nephele i just fixed a patch from someone else !
<nephele>
Yes sure. But you figured out which patch you needed and checked linux code on your own, even suplanting a behaviour from there i didn't like. point is you are capable of driver development
<nephele>
IvyBridge is already a group that is mentioned in the intel_extreme driver
<Anarchos>
nephele you have great memory :)
<Anarchos>
but having a white fading screen at boot is a bit frightening. I don't want to loose this laptop
<nephele>
white fading, like fading in?
<nephele>
Anarchos: the screen at boot (before you reach the desktop) always use vesa or efi graphics, never the "proper" ones
<nephele>
that one could only be improved by bios patching in your case i guess
<nephele>
for the actual intel_extreme driver, your gpu family ivy bridge is already mentioned... there is some code for this, if you are lucky the code relevant to that family is already enough
<nephele>
if it isn't you might need some more investigation
<nephele>
but the thing is, intel actually produces documentation for this, so if you are good with extracting info from documentation you can really learn something and improve the driver for your card
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<Anarchos>
nephele do you know where i can find the doc ?
<nephele>
for some reason i can't download the ivy bridge one from intels site currently...? some wierd corporate redirect site
<nephele>
scroll down to Gen7.0: Ivy Bridge, it should be relevant to your card
<nephele>
It's from 2012 according to the pci id you gave me, is that about correct?
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<nephele>
hi Skipp_OSX
<Skipp_OSX>
heyo
<Skipp_OSX>
I want a quick resolution to #19700 we can do a more comprehensive fix later.
<nephele>
Sure, I'm just confused what you think the difficulty is for a comprehensive fix?
<Skipp_OSX>
Unfortunately the text is not the only component that is locked to panel colors the tick marks are to.
<nephele>
In my eyes the comprehensive fix would be just adding one line?
<Skipp_OSX>
gotta implement HasSystemColors() and AdoptSystemColors().
<nephele>
Hmm, okay sure. But that doesn't seem relevant to this bug
<Skipp_OSX>
no I tried that, to set the panel text color in AllAttached() it didn't work.
<nephele>
in AllAttached it is already setting the ViewColor()
<nephele>
okay, so why doesn't that work?
<Skipp_OSX>
well it says it is, but I don't think it actually is doing that no.
<nephele>
Well, I guess your patch won't break anything more than what is already broken then. So if you want to stab BSlider more comprehensively later you have my blessing to merge that, if you have a ticket for what stuff needs to be done later
<nephele>
atleast we have the visual bug fixed then
<Skipp_OSX>
yeah just to get rid of the White and we can fix it up later to work on non-panel colors
<nephele>
Well, go ahead. I deliberately did not use a -2 ;)
<nephele>
I can't resolve the comment chain on Haiku. HaikuWebkit fails to render checkboxes!
<nephele>
Am I the only one with the bug that MediaPlayer fails to stop playing a song at the end, gets a black renderbox and then just plays it on loop?
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: seems the mailing list thread is a bit derailed with irrelevant side thoughs now
<nephele>
maybe i should make an email sumarizing positions... So far I've not seen any strong oposotion against drag&drop itself, only with people beeing completely against the idea that copying text is okay...
<nephele>
I acked your commit Skipp_OSX
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<nekobot>
[haiku/haiku] 82fb83956a04 - BSlider: Set text to panel colors. Fixes #19700
<Skipp_OSX>
ok I merged it, ty.
<Anarchos>
nephele 2012 is probable for this laptop
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: can we get a iOS-like "accesibility" option to not blink the text cursor?
<nephele>
Personally I don't like movement in my UI, and i figure anything that removes needless screen refreshes can save energy in the long run :)
<x512[m]>
Oh no, please no caret stopping blinking after timeout.
<x512[m]>
Also there are multiple text editors that implement caret drawing (Pe, Koder, GobeProductive etc.).
<Skipp_OSX>
have at it
<x512[m]>
Blinking caret helps to find caret position. Humans are easier to find thing that is moving/changing.
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<Anarchos>
x512[m] i must use ghidra on GobePRoductive :)
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: do you know apps that need to be migrated to the layout kit? I want to make a couple of tickets and tag them as a group, and add existing tickets to that
<Anarchos>
nephele just search for 'layout' in bugtracker ?
<nephele>
Anarchos: I want to add a tag for that. there is only one ticket tagged
<Anarchos>
nephele or look for specific method not in Layout, in the grok ?
<nephele>
i'm doing housekeeping Anarchos
<Anarchos>
nephele i wouls use TextSearch to look for BLayout, and compare with the list of apps to find those not using it.
<nephele>
Is BLayout a class?
<nephele>
I guess a base class? I've only seen stuff like BCardLayout and such
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<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: I just submitted a swedish Mac keyboard a user contributed
<sai_the_lass>
i really have no idea what to do now
<nephele>
if you can tell me what i need to do for international mac keyboard i can also submit that
<nephele>
I don't have an international mac keyboard to test... only qwertz ones
<nephele>
sai_the_lass: hmm?
<Skipp_OSX>
ok
<Skipp_OSX>
twice somehow
<nephele>
huh? did it choke? I did send it thrice, but i only used --amend and did not modify the commit-id
<Skipp_OSX>
apparently there's two commit IDs somehow
<nephele>
I guess i'm supposed to keep a newline
<nephele>
fixed now
<Skipp_OSX>
k
<nephele>
So, do you have instructions for the international mac keyboard?
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<Skipp_OSX>
I mean the Mac one is very different
<nephele>
maybe you can export your currently used mac international keyboard for the template...
<Skipp_OSX>
I guess it depends on whether you want the Mac version of US International or you want what macOS gives you.
<nephele>
I guess whatever is written on the keycaps?
<Skipp_OSX>
well the keycaps are the same it's the option map that's different.
<nephele>
and symetrical assignment of the modifier keys, without altgr acomodations
<Skipp_OSX>
yeah
<nephele>
left-windows + q -> @ is so jarring to me
<nephele>
i wish this alt-gr nonsense was already sorted
<nephele>
maybe we just need to deprecate the current keymaps and have properly (arbitraryily) leveled keymaps....
<nephele>
without the ability for api clients to view it
<nephele>
just stuff the generic US international one into that, or make it empty
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<x512[m]>
That is terrible idea.
<x512[m]>
Various software need keymap accees like screen keyboard or Wayland compat layer.
<x512[m]>
Alt-gr == Opt on BeOS/Haiku. I see no problem there.
<Skipp_OSX>
people want it to be alt that's the problem
<nephele>
No... alt-gr simply is a different key
<Skipp_OSX>
I am an American so I have no skin in this game.
<nephele>
That's fine. But this is an extra key that is *not* alt. and not option
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<Skipp_OSX>
It's literally Alt
<x512[m]>
"alt-gr" is a Windows name. Opt is BeOS/Haiku name. You can assign Alt-Gr key to Opt key in Haiku.
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: it isn't
<Skipp_OSX>
This is correct, there's the Windows way of doing it, with right Alt and the Mac way of doing it with Option.
<nephele>
that's the entire point. This is a completely different key to alt
<Skipp_OSX>
We're supposedly doing it the Mac way but people want to do it the Windows way.
<nephele>
No, we are doing it the windows way. But it doesn't work correctly because the keymap *can't* represent this
<Skipp_OSX>
Even reverted my text view modifiers because of lack of understanding of this.
<Skipp_OSX>
Right, because its not the Windows way, it's the Mac way, with Option map.
<nephele>
It seems to me you don't understand it if you think that alt-gr is an alt key...
<Skipp_OSX>
On Windows Option has an entirely different purpose.
<nephele>
This has nothing to do with mac vs windows Skipp_OSX
<nephele>
This is a keyboard specific thing
<Skipp_OSX>
I do because it is literally indistinguishable from right Alt.
<nephele>
You're just wrong here
<Skipp_OSX>
If I were wrong there would be a different key code and there isn't.
<nephele>
No
<Skipp_OSX>
If I were wrong there would be an AltGr map in keymaps and there isn't.
<nephele>
Now you are starting to grasp the problem. good job.
<Skipp_OSX>
I've always grasped the problem, people have muscle memory for that key but it's not a real thing, it's just a Windows convention.
<nephele>
No, it's a keyboard thing
<Skipp_OSX>
It's a keyboard thing in that it says AltGr on the key yes.
<Skipp_OSX>
But that's as far as a thing that it is. A convention used by Windows.
<nephele>
Let me put it like this, if you are an european, unless you've *only* used a mac, ever. Alt-gr is always correct. And the population that has only used a mac is very, very slim
<Skipp_OSX>
Right, so there you go.
<Skipp_OSX>
Even you admit that as a European there is an alternative, and is used, it's just not as popular.
<nephele>
No, it's not an alternative
<nephele>
a keyboard most of the population can't use is not an alternative
<Skipp_OSX>
Haiku is meant to use the Mac convention of using Option instead of the Windows convention of using right-Alt.
<nephele>
No, it isn't
<Skipp_OSX>
Sure it is, that's why it defines an option map in the keymap and no AltGr map.
<x512[m]>
Haiku is not Windows. Haiku is Haiku. No need to clone Windows in Haiku. Haiku already provides separate keymap page for Opt key.
<nephele>
that's just BS Skipp_OSX... The support is broken. But if your reasoning was true i'd have to press option-l for @, and not alt-qr q
<Skipp_OSX>
it's not broken, it simply uses a different convention.
<nephele>
which is very convenienct because "cmd-q", which is also the key right next to the space bar, closes the app!
<nephele>
and this even happens in haiku if you use right-windows-q, which is not intended at all
<nephele>
but is caused by this bullshit remapping to make this alt-gr stuff work somehow
<x512[m]>
Is is ridiculous to break public keymap API just to mimic Windows.
<Skipp_OSX>
right, the bullshit is to switch the right hand side to give you a pseudo AltGr key.
<Skipp_OSX>
It didn't break the public API but yeah it changed the modifiers.
<Skipp_OSX>
And I'm not upset I'll never use those keymaps anyway so it doesn't bother me, I'm just explaining how it is meant to work.
<nephele>
This is only done because the keymap does not properly support alt-gr... and we decided supporting alt-gr is *more* important than properly supporting the other modifiers on the right hand
<Skipp_OSX>
Right, and that's on purpose because AltGr is not the convention we use, we can go in this circle all day.
<nephele>
It's on purpose because we really really want alt-gr to work
<Skipp_OSX>
We could add an AltGr map but that would break compatibility.
<nephele>
to the point we break everything else to make it work
<Skipp_OSX>
I don't understand why we care about compatibility with keymaps anyway.
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: in theory api clients can use the keymaps
<Skipp_OSX>
I guess
<nephele>
But yes, we should break this compatibility. Then we can properly support the stuff that isn't alt-gr, by giving it it's own layer
<x512[m]>
Again, AltGr is no-go, we are not Windows. Functionality of separate keymap page is available, just a bit different than in Windows.
<nephele>
You are the one lacking in understanding *shrug*
<Skipp_OSX>
see
<nephele>
In this spefic instance you are beeing really dense... In the sense of "Americans not understanding languages"....
<x512[m]>
Skipp_OSX: You are just Windows fan and refuse to understand different ways to do it such as MacOS.
<Skipp_OSX>
I understand fine, but I don't live it.
<x512[m]>
No, nephele .
<x512[m]>
Wrong mention.
<Skipp_OSX>
I understand the Windows way too.
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<Skipp_OSX>
ok I see yeah
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<Skipp_OSX>
nephele wants the Windows shortcuts, so does PulkoMandy, neither will accept the Mac convention as valid.
<nephele>
Shortcuts is a different thing Skipp_OSX
<Skipp_OSX>
I suppose you're right, I meant dead keys and "special" characters.
<nephele>
dead keys is also a different thing
<Skipp_OSX>
I don't want to offend but whatever you call the secondary plane characters.
<nephele>
I'd call those modifier shifts
<nephele>
anyway. For correct operation of a european keyboard one more plane is required
<nephele>
currently Haiku does not have enough planes, so we break somethign else instead :)
<nephele>
Skipp_OSX: anyway. this is not about windows vs mac... Linux does the same thing, as does FreeBSD, as does Illumor, as does OpenBSD... etc. Every graphical OS that supports european keyboards supports alt-gr... even macos... if you want the right hand side to work like a mac keyboard you have to *explitily* remap it in macos
<nephele>
also you can, if you have one layer more, map way more characters which is usefull in multi-lingual situations :) Linux does this aswell, with mapping much more chars
<x512[m]>
> Haiku does not have enough planes, so we break somethign else instead :)