#wayland on 2025-07-07 — irc logs at oftc.catirclogs.org

2024-07-16 04:52 ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput

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12:21 <pq> leon-p, there is the pixman mailing list IIRC. I think IRC for Pixman used to be on Cairo's channel.

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12:45 <crcl> i'm looking into the state of screensavers (the fancy moving picture kind) on wayland, and i found this https://sr.ht/~mstoeckl/wscreensaver/

12:45 <crcl> and i'm wondering: why is it necessary to port these screensavers to wlr-layer-shell? they run perfectly fine in xwayland. is there a technical reason why a wayland screen locker can't open an xwayland window, run a screensaver like this, and display it while the screen is locked?

12:45 <crcl> i'm hoping to make a proof-of-concept if it's possible. if this is the wrong place for "developing things for wayland" (as opposed to "developing an implementation of wayland") i'd like a hint for where i should go to ask for help

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12:47 <kennylevinsen> crcl: layer shell is not appropriate for screen locking - wscreensaver is old

12:48 <kennylevinsen> This is the appropriate protocol: https://wayland.app/protocols/ext-session-lock-v1

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12:49 <kennylevinsen> The reason that this needs to be used is that screen *locking* is not at all the same as a simple screen saver. Screen locking has security implications, and must be done in a way where the display server *knows* that the session is locked and will enforce the locked state even if a fancy screensaver crashes

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12:50 <kennylevinsen> most x11 lockscreens are not safe in that regard, and will likely "fail open" - i.e., just let anyone get access if the lockscreen encounters an issue

12:50 <wlb> wayland.freedesktop.org Merge request !101 merged \o/ (ci: use latest Wayland tag across all branches https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland.freedesktop.org/-/merge_requests/101)

12:50 <wlb> wayland.freedesktop.org/main: Simon Ser * ci: use latest Wayland tag across all branches https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland.freedesktop.org/commit/23a5115169c5 .gitlab-ci.yml

12:51 <crcl> i'm aware, that's why i'm hoping to be able to use an existing wayland screen locker and make it run screensavers on xwayland

12:51 <crcl> to my knowledge, xscreensaver (the x11 screen locker) runs the screensavers as separate programs, no problem if they crash. i'm hoping to have a similar situation in wayland

12:55 <pq> crcl, the wayland screen lock would prevent any X11 windows from being visible.

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12:57 <kennylevinsen> crcl: xscreensaver itself crashes, you'll be let in. If an ext-session-lock client crashes, you're shown a dedicated lock failure screen (often just a red color). Fail-open vs. fail-safe.

12:58 <kennylevinsen> and when it runs as it should, I assume nothing stops an X11 client from showing itself above the screen saver (intentionally or not), while ext-session-lock guarantees that nothing but the lockscreen is visible until the session is explicitly unlocked

12:58 <pq> crcl, xscreensaver programs do run separately, but AFAIK they "lock" the screen by grabbing the input and trying to force their window on the top, hoping to hide anything that might be open. If the program crashes, the "locking" is gone. If another program opens another new X11 window, it might even get on top of the screen saver.

12:59 <crcl> i'm aware. i like this quality about ext-session-lock, and i hope to keep it. i don't intend to run xscreensaver "as-is" on wayland. i intend to make a proper ext-session-lock screen locker, that also runs screensavers

13:00 <kennylevinsen> It would be possible to create an ext-session-lock "adapter" that embeds a wayland or x11 display server to show anything, but you'd have to figure out how to safely communicate the intentional unlock

13:00 <pq> I guess a simple solution would be to hack the Wayland compositor to detect X11 screen saver windows via an X11 window property, and let them show on top.

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13:00 <kennylevinsen> that could also be an option yeah

13:01 <pq> you'd also hack out all the "locking" from xscreensaver and set the window property.

13:01 <pq> The problem is, any X11 app could set the same property and bypass the lock them.

13:01 <pq> *then

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13:05 <crcl> kennylevinsen: that's very close to what i was imagining

13:05 <crcl> i'm wondering whether it's possible for my hypothetical ext-session-lock screen locker to communicate with xwayland, create a x11 window, pass the window id to the screensaver program, and finally embed this window in the surface that gets shown on the screen. then when the user presses a key the ext-session-lock screen locker takes over and checks whether the password is correct

13:06 <crcl> (excuse my lack of familiarity with the details of wayland protocols, i haven't developed anything for it yet)

13:07 <kennylevinsen> your screen locker would not communicate with an existing Xwayland instance. You would make it a display server itself, running its own Xwayland instance and compositing it onto the ext-session-lock surface, forwarding inputs

13:08 <kennylevinsen> Many display servers already support running as a regular (xdg_toplevel) wayland window, so it would be a matter of adapting it to ext_session_lock

13:09 <kennylevinsen> but the trick is to *safely* handle unlock - you somehow need the x11 screensaver to have a proper handshake where it says "unlock", instead of just closing its window/disappearing for example

13:09 <kennylevinsen> otherwise you still have the same security issue, just with more parts

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13:12 <crcl> i don't see what you're trying to explain. the screensaver is expected to be a simple graphical program (e.g. galaxies, one of my favourites), and is absolutely not expected to do anything secure

13:12 <crcl> i just want a ext-session-lock screen locker to show such a program (xscreensaver happens to have a large repertoire of programs for x11, so i would need xwayland)

13:12 <kennylevinsen> A lockscreen is unlocked with user credentials

13:13 <crcl> yes

13:13 <kennylevinsen> A seession must only unlock correctly if it's 100% sure it received valid credentials, not simply because a screensaver terminated

13:13 <crcl> correct

13:14 <kennylevinsen> So do you want to implement your own unlocking mechanism entirely orthogonal to xscreensaver, or do you want to use some existing handling it might have?

13:14 <vyivel> i don't think they want the locking part at all?

13:14 <crcl> i don't want to use the locking features of xscreensaver at all. to put it simply: i want to glue galaxies to swaylock

13:15 <kennylevinsen> So your ext-session-lock "adapter" would have its own password prompt and checking and all that, and only use xscreensaver to show pretty bits?

13:15 <crcl> exactly!!

13:15 <kennylevinsen> that's easier than trying to make xscreensaver safe at least, but still a bit of work

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13:31 <crcl> ok, with this ambiguity out of the way, i'd like to revisit the "adapter" architecture. from my examining of xscreensaver texts, the interface of the pretty bits is simple: set XSCREENSAVER_WINDOW env to a x11 window id, run the program, and the program will draw to that window

13:31 <crcl> i don't think this requires running a whole separate instance of xwayland? or does something preclude the ability to read the x11 window contents, copy to the screen locker surface, and show it?

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13:37 <pq> crcl, I think that could work.

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