ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<whot>
Eighth_Doctor: locking a screen and putting pretty pictures while the screen is locked appear to be two independent requirements. xscreensaver does both but I suspect most ppl would be happy with the latter, and that's probably easier to argue for than the former.
<Eighth_Doctor>
well, most non-gnome/kde desktops don't have something to support them being separated
<whot>
what I'm saying is that if you want pretty pictures to happen in the lock screen, that's a discussion more people are willing to entertain than "make xscreensaver work in wayland"
<Eighth_Doctor>
honestly, "make xscreensaver work in wayland" is a perfectly reasonable discussion to entertain
<Eighth_Doctor>
it's a session lock system that also provides "pretty pictures" that prevent screen burn-in (which is once again a real concern with OLED screens)
<Eighth_Doctor>
and frankly, we need to stop shutting down discussions like this just because people are asking for specific things, it just upsets people and makes them think we don't care about their needs
<whot>
i'm not shutting down your discussion, I'm saying if you want a coat of arms on your door you'll have more luck figuring out how to attach that to your car door instead of figuring out how to modify a car to use a stagecoach door frame
<Eighth_Doctor>
ehh, jwz is already trying to do the thing with what we have
<whot>
separating what you *want* from what you *have* is a really important thing, faster horses and whatnot
<Eighth_Doctor>
sure, but having an opening salvo by saying that will just upset people
<Eighth_Doctor>
someone asking for "make xscreensaver work in wayland" does not necessarily mean "xscreensaver" as we know it today gets there, but making people feel like they're being shut down is not a good way to get the productive path
<Eighth_Doctor>
and regardless, xscreensaver is being ported to work on the protocols we have now, so it's really just "do compositors support the things we already have spec'd?"
<whot>
and yet I've had plenty of conversation where "make xtool work in wayland" literally meant "make xtool work in wayland without modifications"
<Eighth_Doctor>
as have I, but when I talk to people, it's not about the tool: it's about the interface
<whot>
so again, you can interpret my above statement as trying to shut you down or as the intended "separate your needs if you haven't yet", either way has little effect on me
<Eighth_Doctor>
you can't just tell people "no you can't have the interface you rely on anymore and we don't have any plans to give you anything to use instead"
<Eighth_Doctor>
whot: because text is the worst communication medium on the planet and it's super easy to see that atmosphere due to all the _other_ discussion that happens here that ends like that
<Eighth_Doctor>
your response reads to me as if you are infantilizing my ask, which I did not appreciate (the phrase "pretty pictures in the lock screen" was the key phrase that indicated that)
<Eighth_Doctor>
there is no tonal or visual context to tell me anything other than the default, which doesn't read very well
<whot>
yeah, sorry, "pretty pictures" was definitely not meant as infantilizing, just as counterpoint to the lockscreens traditional void of anything
<Eighth_Doctor>
ah ok
<Eighth_Doctor>
thanks
<Eighth_Doctor>
unfortunately, I'm used to being mocked by people when I go and ask things on behalf of users :(
<Eighth_Doctor>
anyway, the point is... it doesn't actually matter whether the tool needs modifications or not, as long as we can give people the interfaces they can work with... the problem I've seen is that people get told they're dumb for wanting them, which is both unfair and mean
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<Eighth_Doctor>
I think the more frustrating thing developers have is that they feel they're not really given tools to build something that works for wayland environments across the board
<Eighth_Doctor>
I find it hard to disagree at times, but that's the trade-off that was made for the design of wayland
<Eighth_Doctor>
and there are advantages to this approach too, they're just a lot less obvious
<Eighth_Doctor>
(like how there's a lot more people who actually understand how the stack works, and how it is technically possible to replace implementations a whole lot more easily than ever before)
<Eighth_Doctor>
it doesn't mean that everyone takes advantage of this equally (e.g. GNOME's monolithic and tightly integrated architecture vs most other desktops' modular, semi-coupled architectures), but at least there's a whole lot more knowledge and opportunities than there was before
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<Consolatis>
a lock screen needs to provide some feedback to the user like a password prompt. ext-session-lock-v1 allows a single surface per output and its up to the lock client to render whatever in there. it doesn't really matter at all if its some animated screensaver or just a static prompt. I don't really see a difference between the two
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<zamundaaa[m]>
<whot> "Conan Kudo: locking a screen and..." <- I did think about splitting unlock UI and background into two different processes before
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<zamundaaa[m]>
Kscreenlocker is somewhat basic when it comes to the background, it doesn't allow per-screen configuration to keep the security relevant thing more robust
<Consolatis>
what would be the benefit of splitting that?
<zamundaaa[m]>
If we'd split it up, that concern would basically disappear. The "pretty pictures" part can do pretty much whatever it wants. If it crashes or misbehaves, you can still unlock just fine
<zamundaaa[m]>
The actual lockscreen would be much more minimal as a result too
<Consolatis>
ext-session-lock-v1 requires the session to be kept locked if the lock client segfaults or similar
<zamundaaa[m]>
Sure, we have that too
<zamundaaa[m]>
But if the user can't login because of a wallpaper plugin, that's still not good
<zamundaaa[m]>
Or worst case, if it misbehaves and that results in the process unlocking the session
<Consolatis>
well, in that case supporting the protocol would make even more sense to me. kde can keep using a very basic but robust locker but users could also use some fancy one if they feel like it and then accept that risk
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<zamundaaa[m]>
The point is that you would not have to decide between the two
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<Eighth_Doctor>
there are also arguments that our existing solutions designed us into a single-process system
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<Eighth_Doctor>
I don't know enough to validate that claim, but given that I haven't seen anyone actually try to separate them, it seems to lead some credence there
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<Eighth_Doctor>
it would be interesting if it was possible to have an architecture to avoid it
<vyivel>
is jwz a big fan of anything
<emersion>
Eighth_Doctor: there are many ways to handel authentication, passwords is just one among many
<vyivel>
"Authentication belongs in the display manager. It's already there since they have already implemented screen locking." is also a strange statement
<emersion>
handle*
<vyivel>
ah nvm i misread it
<Eighth_Doctor>
vyivel: it's a fairly reasonable statement, I think?
<Eighth_Doctor>
like display managers already have to handle most of the session management stuff
<vyivel>
yeah i thought it said display server
<emersion>
it just seems to me they want a DM which can be customized
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<tokyovigilante>
am I interpreting the list of formats linux_dmabuf_v1 is return wrong, or are the vast majority alpha-first, ie ARGB, ABGR, XRGB or XBGR? I only ask because I'm trying to interoperate with Vulkan and not finding a huge amount of overlap, noting that the mapping isn't intended to be 1:1
<tokyovigilante>
particularly for formats compatible with direct scan-out
<tokyovigilante>
ah nice :) oh right, so an ARGB8 DRM format could work with an RGBA vulkan format with a swizzle and still be used as a direct scanout swapchain format?
<tokyovigilante>
Orthogonally, I was not expecting this memory layout for ARGB10 - B7 B6 B5 B4 B3 B2 B1 B0 G5 G4 G3 G2 G1 G0 B9 B8 R3 R2 R1 R0 G9 G8 G7 G6 A1 A0 R9 R8 R7 R6 R5 R4
<emersion>
DRM pixel formats are little endian
<tokyovigilante>
Just the way the green and red values are split really, I assumed they'd still be linear, with just the 2 alpha bits at the start then each 10-bit pixel following
<tokyovigilante>
oh no I see what you mean, byte ordering not bit ordering
<tokyovigilante>
also seems weird that on my AMD system, DRM is reporting basically no RGBA formats supported, but my swapchain support is only RGBA formats (apart from the 1 10 bit ARGB2101010 which both support), so just trying to understand if I've got it wrong or that's just the way it is
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<dcz>
hey, I just wanted to check how far the wayland repo with the core protocols is from getting a release
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<emersion>
not far
<emersion>
today or tomorrow
<dcz>
that's a very exciting answer, thanks!
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