ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<Seti_>
Hello! I wanna use i3 on my asahi fedora but you guys would recommend sway instead right? (i3 implemented in wayland)
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<chaos_princess>
i do not think there is a sway "recommendation", more that the default is KDE, and if you want to use anything else - you should use something that uses wayland
<LarstiQ>
and in that sense sway is a fairly close implementation of the i3 workflow
<Seti_>
yeah thats what i feel like ive read between the lines, anything should be fine as long as it isnt x11
<LarstiQ>
but that's not really asahi specific
<chaos_princess>
pretty much. i think there is also an "anti-recommendation" for hyprland, but that is unrelated.
<chaos_princess>
if you want i3 specifically and is ok testing very early software, look at wayback
<chaos_princess>
it is a thing that allows running full x11 compositors via wayland (not quite what it does, but close enough)
<Seti_>
I'll go with sway i think
<Seti_>
hyprland, the only time i've snubbed software over a dubious maintainer haha
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<bgtlover[mds]>
<chaos_princess> "pretty much. i think there is..." <- well yeah, hyprland's creator is like stuff that's not x86 is not real and can't hurt you, why would you ask? also he's an intitled asshole and a bigot, so I'm not surprised y'all don't recommend hyperland tbh
<bgtlover[mds]>
<chaos_princess> "it is a thing that allows..." <- is that xwayland in rootfull mode?
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<chaos_princess>
that + a few other bits to make compositors work better. i haven't looked deeper, just know that it is a thing that exist
<bgtlover[mds]>
hmm, I should try that with the mate desktop, because it seemns that their wayland progress is stagnating
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<Calandracas_>
Seti_, sway is (mostly) backwards compatible with i3, you can usually use an unmodified i3 config file in sway, and sway uses the i3 IPC protocol
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<Calandracas_>
and +1 to the hyprland antirecomendation. Even putting the political stuff aside, there's some really dubious design patterns with security implications
<Calandracas_>
required executable stack because its plugin mechanism uses trampolines
<Calandracas_>
decided to implement their own malloc
<bgtlover[mds]>
Calandracas_: whoe what? does m1 even allow that? I thought there's a hardware level distinction between read/exec pages and write pages, or am I wrong?
<bgtlover[mds]>
Calandracas_: ok, that's done it. I don't care what features it has, hyprland is a security hazard
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<Calandracas_>
hyprland considered harmful
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<j`ey>
bgtlover[mds]: there is, but the software can ask for read/write/exec pages
<Calandracas_>
^
<Calandracas_>
gcc needs it, for example
<chaos_princess>
it is only macos that hard-forces W^X.
<chaos_princess>
Calandracas_: and you haven't even told about the worst part of their malloc :P
<ar>
> Rust would also not have fixed this, we'd be writing the same thing, just in an unsafe{} block.
<ar>
[x] doubt
<bgtlover[mds]>
those are already in ram for most cases, the hell?
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<chaos_princess>
>>>Fisrt, it relies on writing an object file at a predictable path in /tmp and reading it back later.
<chaos_princess>
^quote from above
<bgtlover[mds]>
ar: yeah umm, that's false
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<bgtlover[mds]>
I mean sure, for that specific case, maybe, maybe not, but if the issue with libc_malloc is that it's slow, there are good rust wrapped memory allocators which are faster
<Calandracas_>
the problem is that their plugin mechanism is not a good design
<ar>
runtime loadable executable binary plugins are somewhat difficult to get right
<ar>
i've tried twice, and returned to loading bits of ruby/lua
* bgtlover[mds]
points at wasm
<Calandracas_>
neovim does this whole thing right
<Calandracas_>
but another part of the problem is that they want plugins to be capable of overwriting arbitrairy functions
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<Calandracas_>
Which i guess if it was lua, only api exposed functions could be overwritten
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<bgtlover[mds]>
Calandracas_: umm, then why don't they write hyprland in python? they could do that with wasm too for example, especially if they use something like the tower crate to architect their code around, so then every event or whatever the compositor reacts to would be routed through the pluggin layer, before it reaches the program itself
<Calandracas_>
because the author is a c++ acolyte
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<bgtlover[mds]>
Calandracas_: yeah, but I'm hard pressed to think there's no such thing for c++, I find the tower pattern extremely useful. In fact, the odilia screenreader is written around that, it's so easy to reason about program state and the state of the accessibility API with regards to odilia nowadays
<Calandracas_>
who, based on an IRC discussion, didn't couldn't tell someone the difference between a class and a struct
<ar>
one thing you have to keep in mind, is that the guy thinks he's the smartest person in the room
<ar>
which, given his attitude towards other people, often turns out to be true in some specific cases, but only because other people leave
<bgtlover[mds]>
O yeah I know, none of this would fly past him, and I wouldn't propose it to him anyway, but I'm talking academically here, as in, if we'd want an honest and secure implementation of this stuff, how would we go about it
<bgtlover[mds]>
I'm thinking of capability-safe programming languages and so on, but that ain't quite as useful in this situation :p
<chaos_princess>
i'd say the "rust won't fix it" is a great quote, not because it is a dunk on rust, or something, but because it shows that the author would be doing cowboy programming no matter the tools
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<bgtlover[mds]>
cowboy programming? now that's a new one
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<bgtlover[mds]>
but yeah, as much as I hate proprietary stuff and such, apple really did an awesome thing with those machines, architecture wise. Obviously, I hate the whole apfs stuff, but granular secure boot, booting straight into some kind of operating system and call that a uefi like system, all that stuff is awesome. Like, imagine that on x86, we wouldn't boot to uefi, but to some kind of linux. I would have speech immediately after turning on the
<bgtlover[mds]>
machine!
<Calandracas_>
You can kinda sorta do that on coreboot x86
<Calandracas_>
linux can be used as payload instead of EDKII
<chaos_princess>
uefi or not does not really matter? you can have sound output on uefi, you can even play doom in uefi. it is more that the firmware vendors have different priorities
<bgtlover[mds]>
yeah, but also, uefi won't be accessible ever, as a unified thing, because of vendors indeed, but also because we don't have a uefi protocol for apps to access sound whatsoever. A kernel would also fix a lot of well, this has to work for who knows how many hardware configurations problem, so it'd be better all around. Imagine every OS is just a btrfs subvolume on your hard disk, and changing the boot entry is that linux picks one or the
<bgtlover[mds]>
other of the volumes
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<Calandracas_>
bgtlover[mds], you've just described #zfsbootmenu
<Calandracas_>
boot an UKI (or kernel+initramfs), look at zfs subvolumes, find kernel, kexec
<bgtlover[mds]>
Calandracas_: sounds perfect!
<bgtlover[mds]>
I was about to say, if only this would work for bsd too, but then I realised screw bsd anyways /j
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<DecDuck>
hey I was wondering if I could have some help running a Wayland compositor on my M1 MacBook Pro touchbar? I've tried my own naive way, documented here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1mrjybj/. I was wondering if anyone here could help?
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