ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | "Does XXX work yet?": https://alx.sh/fs | GitHub: https://alx.sh/g | Wiki: https://alx.sh/w | Topics: #asahi-dev #asahi-re #asahi-gpu #asahi-alt #asahi-stream #asahi-offtopic | Keep things on topic | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi
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<ar7ch>
hi, is it possible to have some kind of x86 linux guest (vm or container) on aarch64 host with acceptable performance (i.e. at a speed faster than qemu-system-x86_64 emulation)?
<ar7ch>
i know about fex but it is probably isn't what i need since it does binary translation of a specific application while i need a kind of complete system
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<twb>
qemu-system-x86_64 emulates a full system
<twb>
if you only need to run x86_64 binaries, use qemu-x86_64 via binfmt_misc
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<ProspectvBuyer>
I didn't phrase that well what I'm trying to say is I don't think it has been updated since before the devices were made available for purchase
<chaos_princess>
probably, but there is no timeline on when exactyl
<chaos_princess>
*exactly
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<twb>
Is it purely limited by the intersection of people who have time, skill, and inclination? Or do they also need e.g. a donation of a couple dozen M4 systems so they can risk bricking them
<chaos_princess>
first, those machines are not software-brickable
<twb>
I want to say "hold my beer" but OK :-)
<ProspectvBuyer>
So no matter what I do I can't brick the device?
<chaos_princess>
i think the only dangerous part is that you can fry the speakers if you edit the driver code and remove all the protections
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<ProspectvBuyer>
That's reassuring, if I wanted to help in terms of coding what do I need to learn where do I start
<twb>
coding in general?
<twb>
Like "how do I learn to program"?
<ProspectvBuyer>
not quite I meant like what do I need to know to port Linux to the M4 I imagine it involves C/Rust/asm programming
<twb>
OK, I dunno about that
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<chaos_princess>
it first involves rewriting large chunks of a certain hypervisor to emulate custom apple instructions and translate the page table formats. you up for that?
<twb>
I didn't even realize page tables were more complicated than "they're 4K aligned"
<ProspectvBuyer>
Well I don't know much but yes I want to do this if possible as my final year project but I don't know anything yet (and I have my whole second year ahead of me before that to learn what I need to know)
<chaos_princess>
do you only have a m4
<ProspectvBuyer>
I dont have any macbook yet but I am thinking of purchasing the base M4 MBA since I can get it for £320 (retail £899 for me with student discount or £999 without)
<chaos_princess>
twb: apple has a custom feature that re-uses the permission bits as an index into a register that contains real permission bits, and uses it to very quickly flip large blocks of pages between rw and rx
<chaos_princess>
ProspectvBuyer: i would suggest not doing that unless you are ok with potentially being stuck with macos only for several years
<ProspectvBuyer>
My thinkpad keeps crashing I think when I damaged the headphone port something on the internals of it maybe causes it to crash (happens on different OSes thats why I think that). If you are asking due to needing a Mac for the OS recovery thing I will likely be able to borrow an M2 Mac Mini in case of an emergency
<twb>
chaos_princess: interesting
<chaos_princess>
no, i mean you should not buy one expecting to run linux on it
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<ProspectvBuyer>
Do you think its possible for me to port linux to it as my final year project? Like work on it for the next two years straight
<chaos_princess>
i don't know your skill level
<ProspectvBuyer>
presume Level 0
<chaos_princess>
lolnope, pick something easier
<ProspectvBuyer>
is there anything I can do for final year project that will help port linux to M4
<twb>
Speaking as someone whose final project was "can we use Student's t test to draw conclusions about a certain datasets? Conclusion: dunno", I highly recommend picking a project you're confident you can finish :-)
<chaos_princess>
the problem above (apple instruction emulation in m1n1) needs to be solved before any work on m4 can even begin, and that i think is something that like <100 people in the whole world can do.
<ProspectvBuyer>
Even if I no life it like whenever I'm not in lecture or studying for university I'm working on it what about then
<twb>
(If you want to get technical my other final project was a randomly-generated maze game in Common Lisp where the UI was presented as a text adventure, and it used OO to allow generic kinds of cells instead of only cubes -- where everyone else did an C++ / OpenGL pacman-style maze.)
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<ProspectvBuyer>
Sounds cool
<chaos_princess>
ProspectvBuyer: hey, if you are determined to potentially waste the money, i am not your parent, so do whatever. But i do not think it is a good idea. (feel free to prove me wrong, i would be happy if you do)
<ProspectvBuyer>
What do you mean by waste the money I don't care if the speakers break as long as I don't brick it I'm happy
<twb>
In theory you have an advisor whose job it is to tell you if a proposed project sounds too easy or too hard
<chaos_princess>
i mean that you can waste the money by buying a laptop that you intend to run linux on and then never be able to do so
<ProspectvBuyer>
Assuming I was working on the project could I still use MacOS or would I need a seperate daily drive laptop
<chaos_princess>
you can use macos.
<chaos_princess>
oh, and also, you will just need another mac or a special debug device to do this thing,
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<ProspectvBuyer>
Would a hackintosh work?
<chaos_princess>
no. it is not about macos, it is about being able to send a special command that turns a usb-c port into a serial port
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<twb>
pity you can't hold something like ⌘+OF during boot to get that
<chaos_princess>
it would not make sense as you need a receiving device for that port.
<twb>
serial-over-usb isn't a standardized part of USB?
<chadmed>
the required m1n1 work might be a good honours/final year project IF you already have the skills to do it
<ProspectvBuyer>
Tell me where to start
<chaos_princess>
it is not normal virtual serial, but apple custom thing. Once you get usb working, you no longer need it as it then becomes a normal usb over serial
<chadmed>
however you and your mentor/course coordinator/supervisor/whatever theyre called in your country would need to have the requisite low level knowledge to do it.
<chadmed>
we cannot hand hold you through it
<twb>
gotcha
<chaos_princess>
ProspectvBuyer: are you really sure you don't want to try doing an m3. it would be _much_ easier
<ProspectvBuyer>
Didn't ask for hand holding, where do I begin learning like what do I need to learn
<ProspectvBuyer>
I can't afford an M3 thats only available for full price wheread M4 and M2 I can get for £320
<chaos_princess>
learn what sptm is, then figure out how to emulate it without being able to run the actual instructions
<chaos_princess>
you can do it on m2 too
<chadmed>
m1n1 needs to trap any calls made to the Secure Page Table Monitor by macOS and handle them itself, basically emulating SPTM. without it, XNU immediately halts on boot.
<chaos_princess>
chadmed: i thought the plan was to do two vms, one for el2, other for gl2?
<chaos_princess>
but both approaches should work, probably
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<chadmed>
whichever is easier i suppose. either way we have to figure out what XNU expects SPTM to do and implement it and thats the hard part
<chadmed>
unless we can figure out how to hook it from a mach-o boot object so that iboot sets it up for us
<chadmed>
which would involve the el2 and gl2 vms i suppose