ChanServ changed the topic of #asahi-alt to: Asahi Linux: porting Linux to Apple Silicon macs | User-contributed/unofficial distribution ports | Logs: https://alx.sh/l/asahi-alt
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<janrinze>
Hi, how far are we from being able to boot a kernel on M4? I'm wondering if it is time to get a M4.
<sven>
very far
<janrinze>
sven: I am fine with console only.. Has there been an effort to bring up a kernel on M4?
<sven>
even console only won't work
<janrinze>
sven: I see. so the kernel does not boot at all?
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<janrinze>
sven: is anyone in particular working on it and if so do they like me to help out?
<sven>
*sigh*
<sven>
no and no
<janrinze>
Okay, I won't offer help.. sorry..
<kode54>
run macos on it and be happy apple lets you do that
<kode54>
and remember that nothing will ever displace x86 as the reigning king of desktop architectures, so you've already set yourself up for trouble by buying something else
<janrinze>
kode54: not sure what that is about.. I have been working on ARM ports to many platforms and quite enjoyed that.
<sven>
m4 requires significant reverse engineering, if you're asking "how to help out" instead of jumping in yourself you're unfortunately not going to be able to help out. and we get people like that every week so i'm just very annoyed by those questions at this point
<sven>
kode54: take that to -offtopic or nowhere
<janrinze>
kode54: I've been running ARM Linux since 1996..
<janrinze>
sven: No worries.. sorry for the noise..
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<chaos_princess>
janrinze: figure out how to run both macos and sptm under raw object mode by emulating gl2 switching.
<chaos_princess>
Or HLE the whole sptm, but that is probably not the best idea
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<chaos_princess>
If this sounds like a very big task with a vague definition - it is, thats just what someone will have to do at some point.
<sven>
SPTM contains drivers for DART and parts of nvme at least so i wouldn't want to HLE that
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<mps>
kode54: also I use arm for desktops long time. now I'm trying with loongarch64 (and playing with riscv64 on desktop)
<chaos_princess>
Also, it all might become a bit easier with tahoe, but who knows
<kode54>
mps: cool
<kode54>
I wish more of this would see wider use
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: is gl2 similar to EL2 or such? As I understand it you want to run Linux and OSX at the same time. For debugging, I suppose.
<kode54>
incidentally, what I was saying about x86 supremacy was sarcasm, not my sincere beliefs
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: in a sense running OSX and Linux each from a hypervisor?
<mps>
kode54: I still sometimes use 10 years old arm acer R13 MT8173 chromebook as desktop - stable, speed is acceptable and very good battery
<kode54>
cool
<kode54>
it just annoys me that I have a super fast ARM SoC, and it can't run a CPU bound game very well because it's a recompiler based runtime running under Rosetta, so double recompilers
<kode54>
so what does internet say? "lol, macs suck, they're only for work"
<kode54>
maybe I'd like my room to be under 31C some times
<kode54>
oops, I was off there
<kode54>
it's more like 26C
<janrinze>
mps: my old trusty NVidia K1 laptop still runs linux really smooth, even though it's just a Cortex-A15. :-D
<kode54>
awesome
<chaos_princess>
janrinze: no, you want to run m1n1 above both xnu and sptm, in order to be able to trace what those do.
<chaos_princess>
And gl2 is kind of a "lateral" protection mode, just put "apple gl2" or "apple sptm" into a search engine of your choice, there should be enough articles out there that explain what it is
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: already found the source code for init_stpm but that only works if stpm was not yet activated by the bootloader.
<janrinze>
oops.. init_sptm
<mps>
janrinze: also I have armv7 chromebook with alpine as desktop but didn't used at least one year, though I keep it updated just in case
<janrinze>
mps: I was amazed that the latest kernels run actually really well on that old laptop. Even GPU support is now 'out-of-the-box'
<mps>
janrinze: well, kernel run fine but I think gpu drivers not so good though they work
<janrinze>
mps: beats binary blobs ;-) Quite funny to think that it took 10 years to get a GPU supported
<mps>
I have 5 arm notebooks (seven if count apple silicon) and always had to 'tweak' gpu
<mps>
but all in all they are fine and usable
<janrinze>
mps: Lenovo x13s is a whole different experience. Never had an ARM laptop that has UEFI before.
<mps>
janrinze: now u-boot have EFI layer
<mps>
so it is possible to use UEFI 'on top' of u-boot
<janrinze>
mps: my first ARM notebook had an XScale cpu :-D and some obscure proprietary bootloader. Luckily the bootloader had enabled a serial console hidden on some pins on the PCB
<mps>
janrinze: my first arm notebook was asus transformer TF101 with docking station and debian :-)
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<janrinze>
mps: have that one too. was a pain to get Linux running on that one. heavy one too.
<mps>
janrinze: yes, but once bootloader solved it was ok
<janrinze>
mps: only found out about postmarketos recently and learned they have many interesting stuff to boot linux "easy" on those old platforms.
<mps>
janrinze: yes, pmOS is alpine based ;-)
* mps
is alpine developer for years
<janrinze>
mps: Oh, I only use it for getting debian installed :-D
<mps>
janrinze: :-D
<mps>
janrinze: I switched to alpine after about 20 years on debian
<janrinze>
mps: Alpine is nice. I just have some hesistance regarding the compiler/library choices there. Got too many projects that depend on toolchains etc.
<janrinze>
mps: I've been on debian since before 'Potato' (was that the right name?)
<mps>
janrinze: heh, musl is trying to be POSIX compliant and this is problem for some developers
<janrinze>
mps: indeed.
<mps>
janrinze: yes, Potato
<janrinze>
mps: I still have a copy of Corel Linux Word Perfect for ARM :-D
<mps>
janrinze: oh, Corel Linux. I forgot that it existed ;-)
<janrinze>
mps: got a few Netwinders on the shelf.. back then companies would just send you hardware in hopes that you would help port Linux. Does Russell King still maintain ARM Linux?
<mps>
janrinze: I'm not sure he is much active these days but I think he still works to some degree
<mps>
Arnd Bergmann do a loot of these things for arm
<janrinze>
mps: pretty sad that back then x86 developers were unwilling to cooperate to get structure alignment correct in the kernel. It hampered the performance of ARM tremendously.
<janrinze>
mps: and Olof Johansson?
<mps>
janrinze: yes, but I 'put' x86 in dust long ago
<janrinze>
mps: M1 was a real game-changer. Unfortunately no 32-bit mode though.
<janrinze>
mps: Linaro probably has changed a lot..
<chaos_princess>
do people still use aarch32 for anything relevant? (genuinely curious)
<mps>
janrinze: tbh, I've bought apple silicon notebooks only because they have really good displays, what is very important for someone who look at screen for 12 hours on day
<leio>
should get an external monitor, keyboard and mouse then ;)
<janrinze>
mps: OSX for work (it's really stable) and because of the immense build quality.
<mps>
chaos_princess: a lot of old SBCs and still usable
<chaos_princess>
no, i mean specifically on 64-capable socs
<mps>
chaos_princess: ah, sorry, misunderstood
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: Yes, I have a lot of old code that is 32 bit only.
<chaos_princess>
closed source and can't recompile?
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: Hence the Lenovo x13s. (It's almost magic to see how fast that old code runs)
<chaos_princess>
there is an aarch32 on aarch64 fex-like emulator, but it is commercial software unfortunately
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: closed-source yes, but can recompile. However the systems that run the code are not 64-bit capable.
<chaos_princess>
ah, so you need a 32-bit capable dev environment to target 32-only machines?
<chaos_princess>
makes sense then
<janrinze>
mps: my macbook is owned by my employer.. I don't think they appreciate it when I convert it to Linux :-D
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: exactly.
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: And having a laptop that can run the binaries is really useful.
<mps>
janrinze: cross-compile?
<janrinze>
mps: nope. just chroot in a 32-bit world.
<mps>
janrinze: I run arm32 chroot on m1
<chaos_princess>
you are running it under qemu, not native
<mps>
yes, qemu-user is needed
<chaos_princess>
and on things like that x13s, it isn't
<janrinze>
qemu-user works but is not 100% compatble..
<mps>
eh, remember time when used arm32 userland rootFS on arm64
<janrinze>
funnily qemu-user on 32-bit capable ARM chips don't really use emulation.
<janrinze>
mps: that works too.
<janrinze>
mps: but I'm not sure if you can access the whole 32GB then.
<mps>
janrinze: use 64bit kernel
<janrinze>
Oh. 64 bit kernel.. yes.. should work fine.
<janrinze>
x13s cannot run a 32-bit kernel.
<janrinze>
mps: software rendering (90's code) going from 10 fps to >200 fps :-D
<mps>
janrinze: nice :-)
<janrinze>
mps: indeed. Having a 60x faster CPU running the same old code is like going from stop-motion to fluid rendering :-D
<janrinze>
mps: FPU performance is even way more faster. It's great to live in these times. :)
<janrinze>
mps: It's scary to think that modern OS (win..) has billions of CPU cycles available per second and still can't keep up with user typing..
<mps>
janrinze: happily I don't need for old code and actually I lost some of them
<janrinze>
mps: losing a harddisk was the worst experience I had (computer wise) and I'm almost paranoid with backups these days..
<mps>
janrinze: yes, exactly this happened to me and I was sure I had two backups, but reality told me opposite
<janrinze>
mps: git clone.. git update.. git commit.. git push.. And even then I notice I have another copy with other changes :-D
<mps>
one week ago happened again but this time I had luck, second backup is still live
<janrinze>
mps: Samsung SSDs (USB-C) come in various colors.. For me : Red==backup Blue==work Black==Random stuff :-D
<mps>
janrinze: yes, also samsung ssd in my case died
<mps>
usb-c
<janrinze>
mps: That's why I make sure I have two of each (at least)
<mps>
simply died, last time was ok
<janrinze>
mps: were you running a live image from it?
<mps>
janrinze: not from backup. I have another one for live image
<mps>
janrinze: and I have usb stick for rescue
<janrinze>
mps: I did have issues with older Samsung SSD and it appeared to be a bug in the SSD. That was a long time ago. With the prices of SSDs dropping I simply buy a new one when the backup is filled up..
<janrinze>
mps: do you keep the SSD connected over long periods of time?
<mps>
janrinze: no usually, and especially not this one which died
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: Linux is mostly used in datacenters and embedded control. Desktop use is only a small part of the Linux installed base..
<chaos_princess>
yes, and?
<janrinze>
Oh, hence the amount of 32 bit still around..
<chaos_princess>
right, but the thing i was interested is not 32 on 32-only, that is obvious, but 32 on 64-capable
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: It is being phased-out by ARM. I think that the latest ones are from Mediatek (A78 or so)
<chaos_princess>
ahhhh, again, not what i was asking. whatever
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: Sorry, I thought I already answered the question. Yes, 32 bit on 64-bit capable hardware is what I use but the target platforms are 32-bit only.
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: When swapping hardware to newer hardware that is 64 bit capable, it is easier (cheaper) to just use the 32-bit software instead of porting it to 64 bit. Mostly becaues that will introduce new bugs etc.
<chaos_princess>
/buffer notify none
<chaos_princess>
oops
<janrinze>
chaos_princess: if someone does not answer a question, perhaps rephrasing it or asking it again helps?
<chaos_princess>
you already answered the question i was asking, and i acknowledged it in a message from 12:12:20, i didn't ask for the explanation of the rest of the state of arm ecosystem
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<n3ph>
I am still on `media-libs/virglrenderer-1.1.1_p202504240` and `media-libs/mesa-25.1.0-r100::asahi`.
<n3ph>
Quickly tried `media-libs/virglrenderer-1.1.1_p20250806` with `media-libs/mesa-25.1.9::gentoo` and encountered numerous problems. Is this PEBKAC?
<chaos_princess>
use a 25.2.* mesa
<jannau>
mesa-25.1.8 and later should be ok
<jannau>
"asahi: enable virtgpu support" was backported in 25.1.8 I haen't test it though
<n3ph>
results are awful, pink shapes everywhere
<jannau>
try mesa-25.2* then
<n3ph>
currently looking at this : `[blocks B ] <=app-emulation/fex-rootfs-gentoo-20250425 ("<=app-emulation/fex-rootfs-gentoo-20250425" is soft blocking media-libs/virglrenderer-1.1.1_p20250806)`
<n3ph>
Oh and `[blocks B ] <media-libs/mesa-25.2.0 ("<media-libs/mesa-25.2.0" is soft blocking media-libs/virglrenderer-1.1.1_p20250806)`
<jannau>
the mesa driver overlay for app-emulation/fex-rootfs-gentoo-20250425 are not compatible with upstream mesa or virglrenderer. that's probably the explanation for the render errors
<chaos_princess>
^ if your issues are with x86 apps, that is the issue, update soon-ish
<n3ph>
chaos_princess: thx
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