ChanServ changed the topic of #wayland to: https://wayland.freedesktop.org | Discussion about the Wayland protocol and its implementations, plus libinput
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<dviola>
kennylevinsen: I just tried xwayland-satellite like you suggested the other day, I'm still pretty new to it and from what I understand, xwayland-satellite makes the X11 client appear as a wayland client
<dviola>
I couldn't manage to make the app go through waypipe though
<dviola>
it starts on the server, where xwayland-satellite is running
<dviola>
starting e.g. xterm expects DISPLAY to be set, so I set the xwayland-satellite DISPLAY (e.g. :12) but I cannot get it to route it through the WAYLAND_DISPLAY from the machine where I'm running waypipe from
<dviola>
not sure what I'm dong wrong here
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<pq>
dviola, are you running xwayland-satellite with waypipe? Not the xterm.
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<dviola>
pq: I'm actually confused with how they are supposed to be used, sorry don't have a lot of experience with this forwarding thing
<dviola>
I never used it with X :P
<pq>
xwayland-satellite is the Wayland client, so that is what you would remote with waypipe.
<pq>
xwayland-satellite runs on the same host as xterm, so xterm uses a local X11 connection to xwayland-satellite.
<pq>
xwayland-satellite and xterm must run on the same machine, if the thing to go over the network is waypipe.
<pq>
With X11, the network remoting is set up by ssh and sshd when you ask for it: 'ssh -X remote-host' not only given you a shell in the remote host, it also sets up a secure tunnel which on the local end is connected to your local X server, and on remote-host is connected to a socket that X11 apps on remote-host will be able to connect to. sshd on the remote-host also sets up DISPLAY for you, so that you can
<pq>
simply start an X11 app there and have it show up locally.
<pq>
I've never actually used waypipe, so I cannot tell how exactly it runs, but the principle of tunneling a protocol is similar.
<pq>
The Wayland app to be tunneled is xwayland-satellite in that case.
<pq>
and it would run on the remote-host.
<kennylevinsen>
You'd start the session with `waypipe ssh <TARGET>`, then there you'd run `xwayland-satellite &`, `export DISPLAY=:0`, and then you can run xeyes/xterm or whatever
<dviola>
first time ever doing network transparency for me :D
<kennylevinsen>
that each X11 window becomes a Wayland window is known as "rootless mode", the alternative being creating a single Wayland window that acts as the virtual X11 display ("rootful")
<kennylevinsen>
it's conceptually similar to running an X11 server on Windows or macOS, where it uses the local display server for the actual presentation
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<kennylevinsen>
which is also why the mechanism for "rootless" was already there, Xwayland was "just" a matter of adding a Wayland backend to xorg to join the rest
<pq>
Does xwayland-satellite also integrate an X11 window manager? I would assume so.
<kennylevinsen>
(Xwayland is not a separate project, it's the same Xorg project you use to run X11 sessions, just compiled for the Wayland backend)
<kennylevinsen>
just the right amount of duct tape :)
<kennylevinsen>
I have been using it instead of our built-in Xwayland support for a while, and it's quite nice - the hacks all hidden away in a project whose code I don't have to read :P
<pq>
Really neat!
<dviola>
kennylevinsen: interesting, thanks!
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<pq>
if ext_zones lands, would there be any advantage left with compositor-built-in xwayland support comapared to xwayland-satellite?
<kennylevinsen>
depends on how complete an X11 experience the compositor's native xwayland support was creating I suppose - free window positioning, free-for-all clipboard access, ...
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<jadahl>
would also cause x11 clients to not behave well in tiling wms
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<DavidEdmundson[m]>
<pq> "if ext_zones lands, would..." <- right now, yes. ext-zones doesn't really cover the case of XCB_CW_OVERRIDE_REDIRECT, where the client is really forcing the position and not just asking nicely, nor controlling the stacking order and being always on top.
<DavidEdmundson[m]>
I do think it's the correct long-term direction though.
<ofourdan>
agreed
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<ofourdan>
it'd deserve some specific xwayland-only protocols (tbd)
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<pq>
alright
<pq>
emersion, could we have a new libwayland release? I'd like to see the color management section published.
<ifreund>
how does xwayland-satellite handle tooltips and popups and whatnot?
<ifreund>
does it manage to translate override redirect windows into xdg popup somehow?
<pq>
It sounded like it does, if there is a known associated top-level window.
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<YaLTeR[m]>
It does. Not 100% successfully but most of the time
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<mahkoh>
I did a few tests in the only 2 x applications I'm using regularly and x-s fails in obvious ways: for steam, the menus are not properly positioned making some of them inaccessible
<mahkoh>
For jetbrains ides the input handling is broken. After opening a popup, the popup does not receive input until I click it
<mahkoh>
The closing the popup, the main window needs to be clicked as well
<mahkoh>
For override redirect windows, such as the shift-shift search everything popop, it seems to be using layer shell which looks impressive at first
<mahkoh>
However, if you move the popup to another screen, the popup becomes permanently inaccessible because it is automatically dismissed when you move the mouse form the side window to the second screen
<mahkoh>
And reopening the popup opens it in the same position
<mahkoh>
Maybe this could be made to work, possibly with additional protocols, but it doesn't seem production quality yet. Definitely not for the IDE usecase
<mahkoh>
Using ext zones for anything is a bad idea because it is fundamentally incompatible with tiling compositors or really anything where zones are anything other than just the complete area of a single screen.
<YaLTeR[m]>
mahkoh: you should report issues to xwl-s. For Steam sometimes the menus are positioned properly for me. I don't think xwl-s uses layer-shell for anything yet.
<YaLTeR[m]>
supreme tells me noone is opening issues on xwl-s even tho i tell everyone to do so..
<mahkoh>
I don't use x-s. I've spent a lot of time fixing these kinds of bugs in my xwl integration and nowadays it works mostly flawlessly, especially for the jetbrains Ides.
<mahkoh>
If x-s doesn't use layer shell, then I wonder how it implements dragging override redirect windows across the screen
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